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Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing?

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Original post by 1tartanarmy
I don't live in the central belt no. I didn't even mention leaflets, I'm talking stalls. Yes scotland have stalls in every city and most big towns every single week now. In fact If you look at pictures posted up some have two or three different yes groups out on the same day.


In Fife I have seen nothing from the Yes campaign and the only canvassing I've had has been from BT in the form of leaflets through the door. Perhaps Yes doesn't think it's worthwhile targeting with big Westminster MPs around the region? I can also tell you that the student political societies in St Andrews have done an awful lot of door knocking in and around the area as BT campaigners.

I asked about the central belt because the SNP at least have been quite blatant in their attempts to win/buy votes there.


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Original post by MatureStudent36
You are aware that most of us want this referendum over as soon as possible.

I can walk into any town centre and see a host of weird and wonderful people running a whole host of weird and wonderful stalls.


Pfft I'm not wasting my time with you any longer ^^^what a response. The referendum is the most important decision we have ever made. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Original post by 1tartanarmy
I have came to a realisation in regards to this thread. The main opposition here to independence does seem to be midlander and maturestudent.

I have to say that only one of you is doing the no campaign any credit.

No prizes for guessing, maturestudent has went from someone who had points in his arguments 2 months ago to someone who is simply ignorant, twisted and bitter. He is sounding more and more SNP obsessed, the reason why labour lost the last election and continue to have less support is this same obsession. Its embarassing.

Midlander I feel for you...there are a few eejits for yes on this thread but on the whole I read pretty detailed and compelling arguments. Your only aid is mature "I only think about the SNP" student.


I think you do Good bloke and Lib a disservice on that one. And it is genuinely difficult to separate the SNP from the Yes campaign, just as Yes campaigners often use David Cameron and the Tories as reasons to vote Yes. It was the Scottish Greens leader who said the referendum should not be about the present political situation.

The Yes campaign hasn't listened to him.




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(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by 1tartanarmy
Pfft I'm not wasting my time with you any longer ^^^what a response. The referendum is the most important decision we have ever made. You should be ashamed of yourself.


Why should I be ashamed of myself?

Because I'm voting no? Or because I don't agree with holding a divisive referendum when it was obvious from day one that the side that has called it doesn't have a snowflakes chance in winning?

I'm finding the whole thing rather embarrassing to be honest. The minority is making the whole of Scotland coming across the to public at large as a group of whinging, self absorbed, selfish paranoids.
Original post by Midlander
I think you do Good bloke and Lib a disservice on that one. And it is genuinely difficult to separate the SNP from the Yes campaign, just as Yes campaigners often use David Cameron and the Tories as reasons to vote Yes. It was the Scottish Greens leader who said the referendum should not be about the present political situation.

The Yes campaign hasn't listened to him.


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I forgot about them, LIB comes across a biased to me, he has links to the armed forces and is kinda tainted by that, in my opinion of course. But yeh...those two are miles in front of the contribution compared to mature student. My bashing of him is now over...I just felt I had to call him out personally after his comments throughout the last few days.

Using Cameron is the same as using Salmond...stupid and shouldn't be done. Just leaes us open to being called hypocrites. Yeh you mean Patrick Harvie. I heard him speak at a yes night a few months ago, he was pretty good to be honest. He got away from the full nationality argument and the current situation one and gave pretty compelling reasons beyond those...In fact, he openly argued against the white paper, much like Jim Sillars has done...the point is that this not just about the SNP, or the tories...both sides have many different inputs.
Original post by 1tartanarmy
I forgot about them, LIB comes across a biased to me, he has links to the armed forces and is kinda tainted by that, in my opinion of course. But yeh...those two are miles in front of the contribution compared to mature student. My bashing of him is now over...I just felt I had to call him out personally after his comments throughout the last few days.

Using Cameron is the same as using Salmond...stupid and shouldn't be done. Just leaes us open to being called hypocrites. Yeh you mean Patrick Harvie. I heard him speak at a yes night a few months ago, he was pretty good to be honest. He got away from the full nationality argument and the current situation one and gave pretty compelling reasons beyond those...In fact, he openly argued against the white paper, much like Jim Sillars has done...the point is that this not just about the SNP, or the tories...both sides have many different inputs.


I don't think Lib's occupation makes his opinion any more or less valid. I just wish the Yes campaign would stop using the coalition, which has actually done a lot of good for the UK economy so far, to score extra votes. When the SNP are by far the biggest party fronting independence it is very difficult to separate them from the bigger picture. What especially doesn't help are the stereotypes and rhetoric which flow south of the border.

It may be a minority, but it makes Scots appear patronising and insulting towards those in the RUK. I can't vote for something with those undertones behind it. However, your thoughts on something else:

A few Yes posters complain about wealth flowing into Westminster and being spent on the SE of England, but when told that Scotland gets the second highest level of public spending per head, they say 'well it contributes more so it should get more'. England contributes more than Wales or NI but gets less than either, and the NE of Scotland, which contributes the most per head here, receives less from the Scottish government than the central belt.

Is this claim not at least a bit hypocritical? Would you say Scotland gets a good deal from the union, financially at least?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by 1tartanarmy
There is a huge number of independently run yes campaign groups. I am signed up to my home towns one that is run by my childhood primary school teacher. I am also signed up to the yes campaign for the city I live in and for regularly get news from different yes campaigns all oveT the country. They raise their own cash ad do their own thing.

There is thousands of yes campaign volunteers so if that is not a grass roots movement I don't know what is. I have yet to see a better together stall, I have seen loads of yes. Apparently better together can't get the volunteers they need.


I visited Perth last week and the city centre was crawling with Better Together volunteers canvassing. I didn't come in to contact with anyone from the Yes campaign. Better Together didn't seem to be struggling then.


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Original post by euphful
I visited Perth last week and the city centre was crawling with Better Together volunteers canvassing. I didn't come in to contact with anyone from the Yes campaign. Better Together didn't seem to be struggling then.


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There's canvassers on both sides. People like Tartan Army et al only see what they want to see.
Reply 9668
Avatar for Boab
Boab
Sure there are. Just like all those Tories...

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/next-generation-nowhere-to-be-found-as-scots-tory-youth-conference-is-scrap.24189427
Original post by Boab


You need to stop trying to turn this debate into an anti Tory debate. So far all the the YeSNP have offered is a poorly thought out and uncosted future which is why the majority if us are still saying no.
Original post by MatureStudent36
You need to stop trying to turn this debate into an anti Tory debate. So far all the the YeSNP have offered is a poorly thought out and uncosted future which is why the majority if us are still saying no.


To say the Yes side need to produce detail about every single aspect of an independent country with costs is just absolutely ludicrous. It is about the arguments - and winning them.
Original post by Choo.choo
To say the Yes side need to produce detail about every single aspect of an independent country with costs is just absolutely ludicrous. It is about the arguments - and winning them.

They haven't even supplied the basics, and what they have supplied seems to have been written by the brothers Grimm.
Original post by Choo.choo
To say the Yes side need to produce detail about every single aspect of an independent country with costs is just absolutely ludicrous. It is about the arguments - and winning them.


Ah right, so vote Yes now, worry about the consequences later? At least we can say it was fun to hate on Tories and patronise RUK during the good times.


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Original post by Boab


Twice as many MSPs as the Lib Dems and Greens combined, and polled 15% of the Scottish vote at Holyrood.

Still you're right Boab, nobody in Scotland votes Tory because Scots are more liberally minded than everybody else.


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Original post by Midlander
Twice as many MSPs as the Lib Dems and Greens combined, and polled 15% of the Scottish vote at Holyrood.

Still you're right Boab, nobody in Scotland votes Tory because Scots are more liberally minded than everybody else.


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Scotland does not vote Tory because we don't agree with their policies.
Original post by Choo.choo
Scotland does not vote Tory because we don't agree with their policies.


Except Scots do vote Tory, so clearly some do agree. Also, England does not return a Tory majority every single time and plumped for Labour 3 times running.

So to stereotype us all as Tory lovers is just a little insulting. Also, why don't the SNP get more seats at the Westminster elections? Clearly Scots still trust Labour to represent them at a UK level.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Midlander
Except Scots do vote Tory, so clearly some do agree. Also, England does not return a Tory majority every single time and plumped for Labour 3 times running.

So to stereotype us all as Tory lovers is just a little insulting. Also, why don't the SNP get more seats at the Westminster elections? Clearly Scots still trust Labour to represent them at a UK level.


They lose the election in Scotland. Simples. It is either Labour or SNP at Holyrood
Original post by Choo.choo
They lose the election in Scotland. Simples. It is either Labour or SNP at Holyrood


So in other words, Scottish voters get the party they don't want sometimes at Holyrood. The same party is never going to be elected ad infinitum-it just so happens that the Tories get in at the same time the SNP does. Had the SNP got in under the Labour boom years this referendum would've had no chance of succeeding.

Make no mistake about it, the Yes campaign has used Tory bashing to try and win voters. That is not what this should be about.
Original post by Choo.choo
Scotland does not vote Tory because we don't agree with their policies.


Do we not?

Thatcher got more votes in 79 than Salmond has ever revived in any other election.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Do we not?

Thatcher got more votes in 79 than Salmond has ever revived in any other election.


Where are you getting that from? We did not vote for the Tories. We never have done. Yes, some people voted for them, but in your opinion that means Scotland should be ruled by them regardless of the number of votes. The SNP won the election. Are you not right in the head or something? You consistently argue this point even when people tell you you are wrong.

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