Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Midlander
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#981
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#981
(Original post by ConorWilson)
The views of the Scottish people aren't represented in London, don't let the the facts I mentioned change that for you. Scotland has something like 60 mps - I forget the actual number. So naming Scottish Mps as you so intelligently done doesn't show in anyway that the views of the Scottish people are represented. As i said above 91% of Scottish Mps voted aginst the bedroom tax yet it still gets past. The only way to ensure that the Scottish people actually get a say in how our country is run is to vote for independence.
Don't think you were complaining when Scottish MPs voted in Westminster to raise tuition fees in England-or indeed whenever they feel like voting on matters of no relevance to Scotland. You can almost guarantee that there would be uproar amongst Scots were the situation reversed.
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#982
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#982
(Original post by Midlander)
Hmmm, well England has a more diverse mix of cultures, doesn't have its own parliament, and is far more economically powerful than the rest of the UK combined (specifically down to it being much more heavily populated).
As I semi-seriously said earlier, if any member of the UK should be pushing for a separation it should be England.

Only problem then is that certain members of the chip-on-shoulder community north of the border would play it as the greedy English deserting Scots. That is the only cultural difference between the two. Take watching 6 Nations rugby in a pub-if you're watching England v Italy in a Scottish pub, the locals are roaring their heads off for the Italians. If you're watching Scotland v Italy in an English pub, nobody really cares.



I have a dilemma for you as well if Andy Murray wins a match he is British if he loses he is Scottish ? Aha!

and I think your wrong about the pub thing ahaha!
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Midlander
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#983
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#983
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Oh dear, ironic that you should bring up national level, the SNP don't get voted in. What does it matter? The views of the Scottish people aren't represented at "national" level anyways. Scotland does not get any say in electing government after government which impoverish thousands of Scots. This is shown by the fact the Scotland has not influenced an election since the 1970's. Basically, most of Scotland voted for Labour but has gotten whatever the rest of the UK voted for. Furthermore, 91% of Scottish MPs voted against the bedroom tax which will impoverish thousands of Scottish people, another classical example of Scotland isn't listened to in Westminster. So how do we benefit immensely from being part of the UK? Or not having control of our own country, control or own economy, our own policy. Why on earth would anybody not want to give our selves the chance to decide for ourselves what's best for us and build or own economy?

The only thing in favour of the UK is a blue white and red "rag" on a pole.
I don't see the Northern Irish or even the caravan burning Welsh complaining half as much. Sure you have Plaid Cymru in the latter, but the Welsh Assembly is still controlled by Labour, and this is reflected in the MPs Wales sends to Westminster too. NI gets even less say in Parliament than Scotland, but that doesn't stop it sending predominantly local party members along. Even your Anglophobic brethren feel no need to break away from UK tyranny.
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#984
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#984
(Original post by Psyk)
The thing is, that reasoning applies to loads of places all over the world. For example, in the USA each state has their own laws, their own education system, their own governments, their own taxation, their own culture to some extent.

The fact that we happen to call the parts of the UK countries and not states, provinces, regions, etc. is irrelevant.
I appreciate your reply but let's focus on scotland not America or any other country , balance my argument against yours. The reality is you know we could manage on our own.
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Midlander
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#985
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#985
(Original post by Megan1234567)
I have a dilemma for you as well if Andy Murray wins a match he is British if he loses he is Scottish ? Aha!

and I think your wrong about the pub thing ahaha!
Andy Murray is possibly the dullest personality in sport-if he wins good for him, if he loses bad for him. As for the pub thing-I experienced it last weekend. I'm watching the decider against Wales in Edinburgh this weekend; I wonder who all the locals will be supporting? :rolleyes:
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Midlander
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#986
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#986
(Original post by Megan1234567)
I appreciate your reply but let's focus on scotland not America or any other country , balance my argument against yours. The reality is you know we could manage on our own.
America is the closest similar example to the UK so it is relevant to debate. Secessionist movements in the US are so negligible they barely come into consideration-even for states with the bare minimum number of electoral college votes. What differs though is that secession triggered a huge domestic conflict which is probably why it's always a minority sentiment.
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ConorWilson
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#987
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#987
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
You're close. 59 in total. 12 of which actually represent the current coalition government. When/if labour win the next general election we'll have 41 of those 59 in Government.

I wasn't just realing off names there. There were some major political hitters.

2 x Prime Ministers
2 x Chancellors of the exchequer.
1 x Foreign Secretary
2 Secretary for Defence
1 x Minister of Transport
1 x Foreign secretary
1 x Head of NATO

to name just a few. But lets not get facts get in the way.

Does Holyrood represent the views of Aberdeenshire. After all, they're a minority in Holyrood.

91% of Scottish MPs voted against the bedroom tax. 9% didn't. Do that 9% get ignored?

I hate to point to say it to you but we live in a democracy. Sometimes we don't get what we want.

I'm not massivly impressed with our cuts to college spending (Devolved). But guess what. It got through.

Oh my, the 9% get ignored? Well as you say...it's a democracy! I'm afraid i don't share your acceptance with sometimes we don't get what we want. Why should we stay in the union and "not get what we want" we could go independent and decide for ourselves. There would Ineveability be some Scottish people some people who would disagree, that's democracy however, the views of the entire country should be not disregarded, we should have the right to decide for ourselves, not what those in London decide.

Your point about Aberdeenshire and Holyrood only applies if you don't view Scotland as a country. It is.
Name dropping successful Scottish MPs doesn't show how the views of the Scottish people are represented.
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#988
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#988
(Original post by Midlander)
Andy Murray is possibly the dullest personality in sport-if he wins good for him, if he loses bad for him. As for the pub thing-I experienced it last weekend. I'm watching the decider against Wales in Edinburgh this weekend; I wonder who all the locals will be supporting? :rolleyes:
Really people weren't saying that when he won gold for the Olympics were they ? As for the pub thing you'll just have to wait and see but you'll be surprised aha!
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Midlander
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#989
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#989
(Original post by Megan1234567)
Really people weren't saying that when he won gold for the Olympics were they ? As for the pub thing you'll just have to wait and see but you'll be surprised aha!
So for the first time in 5 years of living in Scotland I'll see the locals supporting England against a fellow Anglophobic nation? Hmmm.
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ConorWilson
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#990
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#990
(Original post by Midlander)
I don't see the Northern Irish or even the caravan burning Welsh complaining half as much. Sure you have Plaid Cymru in the latter, but the Welsh Assembly is still controlled by Labour, and this is reflected in the MPs Wales sends to Westminster too. NI gets even less say in Parliament than Scotland, but that doesn't stop it sending predominantly local party members along. Even your Anglophobic brethren feel no need to break away from UK tyranny.
"complaining" Really, in debating positives and negatives of independence and you feel the need to inform me about Welsh and Northern Irish "not complaining" and about them having less say than us. That's nice.
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Psyk
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#991
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#991
(Original post by Megan1234567)
I appreciate your reply but let's focus on scotland not America or any other country , balance my argument against yours. The reality is you know we could manage on our own.
It's worth bringing up other countries when you're using an argument that just as easily applies to them as it does to Scotland and the UK. If your argument is that Scotland should be independent because it already has it's own government, laws, etc. then the logical consequence of that is that many other countries should also break up because they also have parts with their own governments, laws, etc.

I'm sure Scotland could manage it on its own. The question is whether or not that would make people's lives better or worse. I don't think anyone believes Scotland would turn into Somalia if it was independent.
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L i b
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#992
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#992
(Original post by Megan1234567)
Once again iam left thinking how rude can you be ? Stop trying to undermine people - you also won't win a debate with that language bit of maturity please? Thank you

Sorry but I don't think we are on the same page , you seem to lack passion about your point also can you answer WHY FLAGS EXIST THEN?

to define the country possible

look at it this why if we all had your Attitude we wouldn't get anywhere.
I won't win a debate by entertaining frankly unacceptable and barmy opinions. There is a limit after which the only rational tactic is befuddlement and ridicule. Consider it a modified version of the left-wingers 'No Platform' ideas which ends up being more fun for me.

Flags exist originally to symbolise armies on a battlefield. Today, outside of the shipping, they serve virtually zero practical purpose.

(Original post by Megan1234567)
I have a dilemma for you as well if Andy Murray wins a match he is British if he loses he is Scottish ? Aha!
This is called a confirmation bias. It is when people take examples of something, entirely based on their own prejudices, to confirm what they already think.

It's why some people believe their children are more in danger of being victims of crime than they are, or why some people think Muslims are all paedophiles. None of these things need be remotely true statistically, but people with peculiar beliefs will accept them as true.
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MatureStudent36
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#993
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#993
(Original post by Megan1234567)
No I can't sorry.. I am being honest I don't know , I'll repeat it again for effect I. Don't Know. See below

What I do know is that scotland has a different educational system

So do Private schools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna..._Baccalaureate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Pre-U


Different Laws

Wow. I'll let Omaha knos so they can scede from the US.
Are you taking By Laws into account that vary from council to council?


Going to repeat this again but different cultures

Difference in Scottish Culture between English Culture? Scotland has a whole host of cultures as does England, as does Wales, as does Northern Ireland. All encompassed under British Culture. What are we doing about the 12% and growing number of the population that aren't Scottish? What about the Scots who are able to identify with both British and Scottish culture? Will we be ignoring the culture that has been imported by centuries of interaction?

The majority of the Scottish population (70%) can quite happily look outwards. For those that can't, I'd recommend studying, working or travelliung. You'll be suprised how much we have in common with the rest of the UK.



Different history

Would that be the the common history we've had for over three hundred years? Or would you prefer to live in the time before that.

Its own parliament which it only got in 1998

Then we're lucky. We have another layer of government to pay for. A layer of government that has a degree of tax raising payers to act as an economic lever that we seem to be very reluctant to use.

I think we should have the right to make our own decisions as OUR OWM COUNTRY! Interestingly you've stated above that you don't know. The reason you think I'm being hard on you is that I strongly suspect that you claim to be something you're not. i.e. interested in debate.

I'm fully aware that the SNP have learnt the art of modern day marketing techniques and buzz marketing using social media. The fact that party activists are trawling the internet pretending to be something their not worries me. I am merely here to act as a counter argument in order to allow for a balanced debate.

this is all I have to say about this. That's it. Done.
..
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L i b
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#994
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#994
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Looks like the oil has a long future for us btw
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...alysis11032013
The oil has a fine number of years in it. Several decades, as I understand it. That doesn't help when it is depleting, less accessible, and we are using it to plug the huge shortfall in our revenue-generating (and it doesn't even come close to doing that any more).

There's this half-hearted suggestion that renewable energy potential is some sort of asset for the future which we'll somehow switch over to. Which would be fine if we were talking about technologies which were highly profitable - but at this stage, they're not even economically viable! Scottish renewables only survive through huge UK Government subsidies.

It also assumes that in 40 years we're not going to develop rather better forms of energy generation. That is entirely possible - indeed, I'd even go as far as to say it was likely.

Running a government with 20% of revenue based on one single depleting commodity is utterly absurd. Even the Scottish Government appears to acknowledge that, to some degree, in private.
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MatureStudent36
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#995
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#995
(Original post by L i b)
I won't win a debate by entertaining frankly unacceptable and barmy opinions. There is a limit after which the only rational tactic is befuddlement and ridicule. Consider it a modified version of the left-wingers 'No Platform' ideas which ends up being more fun for me.

Flags exist originally to symbolise armies on a battlefield. Today, outside of the shipping, they serve virtually zero practical purpose.
I disagree with that about flags. They're great at sporting events, play with children and as indicator to which balcony is yours on holiday.
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Midlander
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#996
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#996
(Original post by ConorWilson)
"complaining" Really, in debating positives and negatives of independence and you feel the need to inform me about Welsh and Northern Irish "not complaining" and about them having less say than us. That's nice.
Two nations with less representation in Westminster don't choose to elect separatist parties as a majority in their own national assemblies. As a result neither has pushed for a referendum on the issue-the only one which struggles to understand that its representation is proportionate to its population is Scotland. 'That's nice'.

Shame those Italians couldn't defeat the southern tyrants last Sunday eh.
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Psyk
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#997
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#997
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Your point about Aberdeenshire and Holyrood only applies if you don't view Scotland as a country. It is.

Name dropping successful Scottish MPs doesn't show how the views of the Scottish people are represented.
Scotland may be a country (in the sense that is a constituent part of the UK, and 'country' is the word we commonly use to describe those parts), but so is the UK (in the sense that is a sovereign state).

Of course Scotland's views are represented. There are ~5 million people in Scotland who each get the same vote as anyone else in the UK.

And actually, as far as I'm aware there is no legislation or any constitutional documents that define Scotland as a country. Really it's just something people have chosen to call it. It doesn't have any constitutional backing.
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MatureStudent36
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#998
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#998
(Original post by Psyk)
It's worth bringing up other countries when you're using an argument that just as easily applies to them as it does to Scotland and the UK. If your argument is that Scotland should be independent because it already has it's own government, laws, etc. then the logical consequence of that is that many other countries should also break up because they also have parts with their own governments, laws, etc.

I'm sure Scotland could manage it on its own. The question is whether or not that would make people's lives better or worse. I don't think anyone believes Scotland would turn into Somalia if it was independent.
I couldn't agree with you more on that post.

I'm glad you've bought up an independent Scotland making it. We could. The question is will we be better off with it. My viewpoint is no. It's just certain politicians that can get on the EU gravy train that benefit. And quite frankly I think we get the best of both worlds.
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L i b
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#999
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#999
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Oh my, the 9% get ignored? Well as you say...it's a democracy! I'm afraid i don't share your acceptance with sometimes we don't get what we want. Why should we stay in the union and "not get what we want" we could go independent and decide for ourselves.
If you care to check that previous posts in this thread, you'll find that your rubbish, anti-democratic argument has been thoroughly debunked.

My home village in Scotland voted 55% Tory at the last UK election. Are we likely to get a Tory majority government in Holyrood any time soon?

There would Ineveability be some Scottish people some people who would disagree, that's democracy however, the views of the entire country should be not disregarded, we should have the right to decide for ourselves, not what those in London decide.
Every individual in Scotland has the same voting weight as every individual in England. It seems you don't like that because you're a nationalist: being equal and everything. The rest of us don't believe in one person having the same power in elections as 10.

Your point about Aberdeenshire and Holyrood only applies if you don't view Scotland as a country. It is.
Whatever you call Scotland, it is not a state. It is a part of one. You are a nationalist, who believes that a person's identity, culture, ethnicity or other factors should determine his civil rights and how he is governed. That is an utterly absurd ideology.

Particularly when your understanding of what a "nation" is happens to be entirely arbitrary and subjective, as we can see from the conflict that nationalism has caused for our neighbours in Ireland.
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MatureStudent36
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#1000
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#1000
(Original post by ConorWilson)
Oh my, the 9% get ignored? Well as you say...it's a democracy! I'm afraid i don't share your acceptance with sometimes we don't get what we want. Why should we stay in the union and "not get what we want" we could go independent and decide for ourselves. There would Ineveability be some Scottish people some people who would disagree, that's democracy however, the views of the entire country should be not disregarded, we should have the right to decide for ourselves, not what those in London decide.

Your point about Aberdeenshire and Holyrood only applies if you don't view Scotland as a country. It is.
Name dropping successful Scottish MPs doesn't show how the views of the Scottish people are represented.
No. My point still stands. In a democracy, the minorrity sometimes don't get what they want. In this case the Minority was Labour which didn't get it. Not Scotland.

Still no response as to your stand point on the Shetlands though.
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