US vs UK universities in terms of Prestige

I am afraid I have to disagree. You have to remember that the US is not only far more populous than the UK but also far more influential culturally and economically around the world. You would agree with me if I say that more people around the world would know about Penn, Cornell or Brown compared to UCL or Imperial. Furthermore, these schools have financial situations which are much superior to British schools in general and they are able to provide greater opportunities for undergraduates. Not to forget, acceptance to these schools is far more competitive -- remember that though American students may apply to an unlimited number of schools, each application requires more time per application on one hand and a fee ($75 - $90) on the other, making students on average apply to fewer schools in contrast to the UK where practically everyone applies to five schools through UCAS with one common application and a single fee of merely £23.

If I were to rank the universities in terms of American prestige, Oxbridge would not have been among the ranks of Princeton or Yale, and certainly would not have edged out Columbia or Penn.

The UK has many excellent schools, but in terms of international prestige, only Oxbridge attains that level of international recognition as elite institutions which most of the Ivy League, MIT and Stanford enjoys. I hope you agree with me. Also, remember that international prestige tells you nothing about which school is a better fit for you, since that is entirely subjective.

EDIT:

Though this is obviously no measure of international prestige, the number of English Wikipedia page hits for each university page reinforces my point about their global reputation. These statistics are for January this year:

University (English Wikipedia page hits rounded off to nearest 5k)

Harvard (190k)
Stanford (140k)
Yale (100k)
Columbia (90k)
MIT (90k)
Oxford (90k)
Cambridge (80k)
Cornell (75k)
Princeton (75k)
Berkeley (70k)
Brown (60k)
Dartmouth (60k)
Duke (60k)
Penn (60k)
UCL (45k)
LSE (35k)
Imperial (25k)

US unis are very expensive but on the average the teaching is much better.

in Uk only Oxbridge are really prestigious, sorry to break a lot of wannabes hearts

US unis are very expensive but on the average the teaching is much better.

in Uk only Oxbridge are really prestigious, sorry to break a lot of wannabes hearts

I'd imagine you'd be better off studying law in the country you plan on living or practicing law in.

So which unis are prestigious in the US then? How many of them?

All?

Every international and prestige league table, with differing methodologies, consistently rank Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Edinburgh, KCL, Manchester and Bristol with the best in the world.

Apart from Oxbridge, both Imperial and UCL consistently rank on par or beat a lot of Ivy Leagues, so what do you mean by "only Oxbridge attains that level of international recognition as elite institutions which most of the Ivy League, MIT and Stanford enjoys"?

Is your Wikipedia hits table more reliable than these?

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012/reputation-ranking

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/10/20/education/20iht-SReducEmploy20-graphic.html?ref=education

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2012/10/25/world/asia/25iht-sreducemerging25-graphic.html?ref=nf

That's a stupid comparison to use. Obviously mainly UK people will search for uk unis. Mainly US people will search for US unis. There's 3-4x as many Americans as there are brits.

It is also fairly ridiculous to state Yale and Princeton rank internationally on par prestige-wise with Oxbridge. These universities are barely known outside the US especially Princeton. Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge would easily roll off the tongue of most people around the world, Yale and Princeton, far less so. It is only the educated that will know Yale, Princeton would still struggle amongst the educated outside the US. MIT can be on par but definitely not Princeton.

Not to say Princeton is not a world class university.

Also Penn above Oxbridge in international prestige? Are you joking? How many people around the world know Penn compared to Oxbridge?

we won't agree but it does not really matter.

edit: neg rep for disagreeing on such a subjective notion like prestige? great

All of you seem to be very knowledgeable talking about top class universities. It makes me wonder how many universities have you actually experienced before making such conclusions.
Experience meaning being in the university and perceiving the academic atmosphere, facilities, lecturers, quality of research, etc.

Keep it classy, TSR.

A better question is why UK unis are not prestigious bar Oxbridge.

A: because that's the way it has always been, and that's England for you.

Oxbridge, LSE, Imperial, UCL, Edinburgh, KCL, Manchester and Bristol are indeed with the best in the world - but they are certainly not on the same level as each other in every aspect, especially not in terms of international prestige. Oxbridge is on an Ivy League level both in terms of educational rigor and international reputation, there is no dispute there. As for Imperial and UCL, they may be excellent schools, and by no doubt some of the best in the world, however I believe it is ignorant to suggest that their international reputation would be higher or equal to those of Ivy League universities. You seem to grossly misunderstand what international reputation refers to -- it does not mean UK reputation and US reputation divided by two -- it refers to their overall reputation as educational institutions around the world. Contrary to what you may think -- I am not an American, I was born and raised in Europe and though this anecdote does not prove anything I can assert that finding people outside the UK who recognize UCL and Imperial would be a rather tough task outside academic circles. Finding someone who recognizes Princeton, Columbia, MIT or Stanford on the other hand would not pose much of a challenge.

The Times reputation ranking you linked to only strengthens my argument seeing as how Imperial is ranked 13th and UCL 21st. The NY Times ranking should be taken with a grain of salt, especially seeing as how it is largely inconsistent with the QS rankings' employer reputation assessments. Boston University over Brown University? It does not lend much credibility in my opinion.

Not at all -- are you forgetting that we are discussing international prestige here? Surely the most prestigious and famous university would receive more hits. The notable bias I can think of would be universities which do not primarily use the English language, since they would probably be misrepresented in this kind of comparison looking at English Wikipedia hits. It seems like you all seem tempted and indeed also try to 'adjust' for population size here, which is evidently inappropriate in assessing international prestige. The UK, per capita, would likely be more impressive than the US in terms of prestige among its best universities. The reality is that their populations, economic and cultural influence today are miles apart, which makes the US' dominance natural and easily understood.

I excuse myself in advance if I seem rude but are you living in a bubble? We are not making a "average prestige during the last 800 years" comparison here -- we are assessing international prestige at the present. Not considering Yale and Princeton at least on the level of Oxbridge in this day and age is preposterous. Need I remind you that Princeton has fewer than half the amount of students either Oxbridge university has, yet it has an endowment which is larger than their combined total? Yale and Princeton are extremely well-recognized globally and I am astonished to read that anyone discussing higher education would be oblivious to this fact. If you refer to all time prestige -- considering the Middle Ages until now -- then Oxford certainly emerges on top. But today? The UK constitutes a mere shadow of its former self on the international stage in terms of cultural and economic influence -- or perhaps you would argue that it is still the most powerful nation in the world too? This is the 21st century and the US is on top of the world culturally and economically and so is its universities.

And yes, the Wharton School at Penn comfortably trumps Oxbridge for undergraduate (and graduate) business studies. It is a business school, in case you did not know.

This is rubbish!

Yes, MIT and Stanford might be better known internationally than Imperial and UCL. But what makes you think Brown, Cornell or Dartmouth are? Thinking that is what is really ignorant.

If you tell most people outside the US to list the Ivy League schools, they would likely say "Harvard, Yale, MIT, Standford, Columbia and I don't know the rest". They know MIT and Stanford and would mistakenly think they are Ivy Leagues.

You claim that the Times table "back up your argument"? So where is Penn, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth and Brown listed in comparison to Imperial and UCL? How does it "back up your argument"?

The NY Times ranking based on a survey of 2000 executives does not lend any credibility but your 'picked-from-the-air' opinion that Penn is better known than Oxbridge does?



This is incomprehendible nonsense used to respond to a valid point.

UK has one-fifth of the US population. At least the US would have 3 times more people going to university than the UK but yet Oxbridge are getting on par hits with the top US universities and more hits than majority of Ivy League Unis (bar Harvard and Yale). That said Harvard and Yale can barely boast of double the hits despite being in a country 5 times more populated.

It is not rocket science. Your own table shows Oxbridge are more popular on Wiki than all the top US unis if the right context is applied. Don't babble against that point.



Well, if I am not mistaken, the reputation tables I gave you were not conducted 800 years ago. They seem to be tagged with years within 2010 to 2012, I strongly think anyone in his or her right sense will say that is pretty "present"? In this "present" survey, Oxbridge are peers with the likes of Harvard and mostly better than Yale if one was to be pedantic. Definitely, Penn is not even in that league in these "present" reputational assessment and would not, if we did it 800 years ago.

Princeton has more endowment than Oxbridge purely because the US have an endowment culture and the UK does not. The majority of US universities are private and depend mainly on endowment, the UK universities do not as they are public, hence the endowment culture has flourished in the US and not in the UK.

If you want to really know about international prestige and want to apply a bit of sense, don't look at endowment, go and look at the amount of international (non-UK or US) presidents Oxbridge and Princeton have produced. Princeton cannot even boast of producing more than KCL even though it is a far better and richer university.

So please never say again that Yale and Princeton have better international prestige than Oxbridge. Worse still say Penn does. That is very ignorant. All indicators suggest Oxbridge are both in the top 5 in international prestige and I suggest Harvard, MIT and Stanford are the other 3.

Please. You refer to the Times ranking as if it was definitive. Berkeley ahead of Oxford; U Mich before Columbia; UCLA before Yale -- its inaccuracy is obvious. It undoubtedly appears as if you have no decent comprehension of US universities beyond these inaccurate rankings.

I never claimed Penn has a better international reputation than Oxbridge. I already made it very clear, I thought, that Wharton bests Oxbridge for business, not otherwise. Saying that Penn is not even in the same league just indicates ignorance -- do you seriously believe that Penn, being one of the premier institutions in the by far richest and most influential nation in the world, is not in the same league? What would account for this difference? The tutorial system or Oxbridge's age? The idea is absurd.

You say that the US has more of an endowment culture -- how in the world does that change anything? It seems again as if you try to 'adjust' the relative position of the university to the country which does not make any sense whatsoever. If you were to employ such logic ETH Zurich in Switzerland -- a country of only 8 million people -- would be the best university in the world. When it comes to international prestige the relative position of the university in the country does not matter, only its position in a global context.

I would argue that Yale and Princeton enjoy more prestige than Oxbridge in some cases, but that they generally have similar reputation internationally. I might add that I believe Oxbridge takes the upper hand in some cases as well.

I am not going to pretend I can convince someone who seems to be so obstinate, but I will close this off by recommending that you try to attain a more sophisticated understanding of US higher education and of that things have changed over the past century. The UK -- despite still offering some of the world's finest educational institutions -- simply cannot compete with the best the US has to offer anymore. You must be naive, and probably an exceptionalist, if you believe that UK elite education -- besides Oxbridge -- can compete evenly with the US elite. We live in an American age, and even if you wish it was not so, you cannot deny it.

I think you should just answer the question instead of avoiding it.

what question

Firstly, I referred to the Times ranking as a reliable indicator, not a definitive, rather then rely on your self-assured 'picked-from-the-air' opinion on university prestige.

Secondly, I combined the Times ranking with 2 other indicative rankings. Combined, these indicative rankings provide more reliable indicators of prestige than your self-assured 'picked-from-the-air' opinion as I believe the experts and professionals asked the questions in the survey have better comprehension than you. That is really obvious by merely looking at your opinion.

Thirdly, if I added additional things like international league tables, a definitive list of prestige would be close and would not reflect your self-assured 'picked-from-the-air' opinion.



Your comparison of Penn's business school vs Oxbridge as a whole is what indicates you are not reliable at these kind of things.

Secondly, despite the US richness and influence, the UK universities are still on par when assess per capita, if not better. You don't know that because you are not particularly good at making such assessment.



First of all, endowment is not a definitive measure of prestige.

So if you are trying to attempt to use the possession of one as a measure of prestige, I need to inform you why US universties have large ones and the UK universities don't.

Secondly, I did not adjust anything. If anyone's argument or logic is stating ETH Zurich is the best university in the world due to its endowment, it is your logic, not mine. It seems you are getting confused.

Thirdly, the relative position of many US universities in the global context does not come close to Oxbridge, definitely Princeton does not. That is the argument I have been trying to get across to you. Princeton well known in US, Princeton not so well known outside the US. Only Harvard, MIT and Stanford can match Oxbridge in the global context.



I think you are the one that needs to update the understanding of the world's higher education system and stop thinking your self-assured 'picked-from-the-air' opinion is a fact in contrast to all data and survey available.

http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2012.html

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2012

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2011-12/world-ranking

http://www.urapcenter.org/2012/world.php?q=MS0yNTA=

UK universities are competing with the best that the US have to offer. Please educate yourself and don't give ignorant opinions.

Which unis are prestigious in the US then? How many of them?

All?

why do you want to know

US unis are very expensive but on the average the teaching is much better.

in Uk only Oxbridge are really prestigious, sorry to break a lot of wannabes hearts

I think it is you that needs to re-educate yourself. The THES and so on are all English language based, how can they assess non English universities ?

Moreover, there are more US unis in the top 20 than there are UK ones.

I'l bet you're the kind that will switch between saying the world rankings are crap and great depending how you own lousy uni does.

Nb. Penn is better than Oxbridge in finance and business that is for sure, Oxb only just started their business schools in the last decade whereas places like Penn and NYU have had theirs for a 100 years

Really?

So it is portuguese or chinese US universities teach in?

Because you came on the thread and said this: