Durham Univsity applicants Help!

6

Hi
I am currently a student at Durham University and currently researching for a presentation and wondered if anyone applying would answer a few questions. The University of Durham are contemplating a system for applicants where if a college is over subscribed for a subject area (for example English) that the college allocation will be randomised. The college would then have no power in choosing students who they believe should be admitted.

Do you agree that a randomised admissions process is fair?

Would this put you off applying for the University?

Thanks

NOTE. I apologise for the thread mis-spelling.

(edited 12 years ago)

Reply 1

criticalnature

This sounds like a terrible idea. It sounds like colleges are just going to randomly pick applicants to accept, regardless of the contents of application.

The whole point of the departments choosing applicants is they, by being involved in teaching the courses, are best placed to choose suitable applicants. I'm sure there is already a range of measures to make this process fair, and take individual circumstance into account. Also, in terms of any subject specific references made within the Personal Statement, academics within the department of that subject are most likely to pick up on them, or someone who would, will be closer at hand.

Selection may have its bias, but it is there for valid reasons.

University should be focused on teaching the academic subject. You study for X years to learn about a specific area and not to go to a specific college. Switching to a college-based system seems very counter productive. Would the colleges each have staff from every department? If not, would you choice of subject affect your chance of admission through that college etc?

A change to a more 'random' application process wouldn't put me off. It would be more stressful, as its far less clear how an application would be assessed.

Reply 2

oldlady

5

Original post

by ebowey

Hi
I am currently a student at Durham University and currently researching for a presentation and wondered if anyone applying would answer a few questions. The University of Durham are contemplating a system for applicants where it would no longer be possible for departments to choose students and it would be decided randomly by a college

Do you agree that a randomised admissions process is fair?

Would this put you off applying for the University?

Thanks

NOTE. I apologise for the thread mis-spelling.

Just to check, are you sure about this? On another thread someone helpfully posted this article
http://www.palatinate.org.uk/?p=34751
explaining that a new system is being trialed in which college allocations are being changed, so that applicants would automatically be allocated to their first choice - unless places for that subject area at that college are oversubscribed, in which case they would be re-allocated randomly. But not departments, who would as far as we know continue to select on academic grounds.

Reply 3

dragonkeeper999

17

I think the previous system was better (assuming your were referring to the random allocation of college places for oversubscribed colleges rather than university offers!). The department (who actually knows about the subject and will teach you) gets to assess you academically and give you an offer. The college actually has a say in whether they like you as a person (i.e. looking at extra-curriculars) to decide whether you deserve a place/ would fit in at their college. This is particularly the case for the really over-subscribed colleges such as Castle - I can't see it being fair that someone who may thrive in that environment (e.g. the whole slightly church-y/ music scene suggested on the open day) being randomly 'pooled' to a different college, but someone who picked it at random from a list because it was popular so 'must be the best' gets the place.
tbh, it probably wouldn't affect my decision to apply. However, I can imagine some people trying to be more tactical with college choices perhaps, to try and avoid being 'pooled' to a really unpopular one... maybe. Although there's probably a bit of that going on anyway.

Reply 4

Helioghost

13

Original post

by oldlady

Just to check, are you sure about this? On another thread someone helpfully posted this article
http://www.palatinate.org.uk/?p=34751
explaining that a new system is being trialed in which college allocations are being changed, so that applicants would automatically be allocated to their first choice - unless places for that subject area at that college are oversubscribed, in which case they would be re-allocated randomly. But not departments, who would as far as we know continue to select on academic grounds.

Yeah, this.

The university does some odd things, but failing to recruit primarily on academic grounds would completely disrupt their current position and reputation.

Reply 5

ebowey

OP

6

Original post

by oldlady

Just to check, are you sure about this? On another thread someone helpfully posted this article
http://www.palatinate.org.uk/?p=34751
explaining that a new system is being trialed in which college allocations are being changed, so that applicants would automatically be allocated to their first choice - unless places for that subject area at that college are oversubscribed, in which case they would be re-allocated randomly. But not departments, who would as far as we know continue to select on academic grounds.

I got an email from University Colleges' JCR and explained about the new randomised selection. But, they wanted to try and avoid it going ahead. But thanks for the posting, really helps.

Reply 6

ebowey

OP

6

Just reworded the statement for the thread, sorry about the confusion. The department does admit students on academic grounds, but it is the college allocation that has caused debates between students and academics. some students feel that they are not being judged as individuals, but as a number and had no input in this decision.

Reply 7

oldlady

5

Original post

by dragonkeeper999

I think the previous system was better (assuming your were referring to the random allocation of college places for oversubscribed colleges rather than university offers!). The department (who actually knows about the subject and will teach you) gets to assess you academically and give you an offer. The college actually has a say in whether they like you as a person (i.e. looking at extra-curriculars) to decide whether you deserve a place/ would fit in at their college.

It's an interesting debate. Personally I find the whole 'like you as a person', 'deserve a place/would fit in' stuff quite worrying. Deserve?? The over-subscribed Bailey colleges get to pick and choose using some highly opaque criteria in which who-knows-what covert social selection goes on (and as I noted on another thread, when I asked on college tours what those criteria were they were embarrassed and reluctant to say). It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that people not picked because of those criteria won't 'fit in'. Whereas if a wider mix of people is allocated to each college, it may be a more diverse and welcoming environment for everyone. 20% of people getting allocated to Castle didn't choose it anyway under the existing system.

This is particularly the case for the really over-subscribed colleges such as Castle - I can't see it being fair that someone who may thrive in that environment (e.g. the whole slightly church-y/ music scene suggested on the open day) being randomly 'pooled' to a different college, but someone who picked it at random from a list because it was popular so 'must be the best' gets the place.

Let's be honest, many, many people who currently get picked for Castle applied mainly because they think the buildings look lovely, and perhaps because they fancy Oxbridge-style gowned dinners. That's not picking it at random, it's completely rational and understandable - it's just there are way more Durham applicants who would like that kind of experience than there are places in Bailey colleges. Some are lucky, some are not - is it really fairer to have social selection or to have a lottery? Your view on which system is fairer will depend whether you are lucky enough to get your preference or gutted that you didn't.

tbh, it probably wouldn't affect my decision to apply. However, I can imagine some people trying to be more tactical with college choices perhaps, to try and avoid being 'pooled' to a really unpopular one... maybe. Although there's probably a bit of that going on anyway.

There is indeed some of that going on anyway. My son made his college choice precisely using that kind of rational calculation - pick something less competitive but that you know you'd content with, rather than risk everything on the slim chance of getting into The Shiny Castle, which he would have loved. But had he known that the system was being changed and that all first choice applicants would have an equal chance of getting in he might well have given it a try. He's quite cross no-one shared this information with candidates.

Reply 8

dragonkeeper999

17

Original post

by oldlady

There is indeed some of that going on anyway. My son made his college choice precisely using that kind of rational calculation - pick something less competitive but that you know you'd content with, rather than risk everything on the slim chance of getting into The Shiny Castle, which he would have loved. But had he known that the system was being changed and that all first choice applicants would have an equal chance of getting in he might well have given it a try. He's quite cross no-one shared this information with candidates.

Perhaps they should try and offer the opportunity to pick a 'second choice' college, to stop that. But I guess then the applicants would become even less evenly split between first-choice colleges.
I'm slightly irritated that they didn't tell us, but at least I got into the college I really wanted (Trevelyan) - if they'd read through my personal statement ect. (rather than the random picking thing) there isn't a lot about extra-curriculars, which may have caused me to get 'pooled' to a different college.
Although, the previous system at Durham is much better in my opinion that similar systems such as those at Oxbridge, as you're chance of getting an offer is in no way affected by which college you apply to, and the entrance requirements are set by the university rather than the college (which is much fairer).

Reply 9

criticalnature

If this thread is solely about the changes to the college allocation system:
I really don't like the idea of randomly being selected for a college, as most people really do pick a preference college carefully. I'd like to think that if you're preference college 'reject' you, you'd have that preference college taken into account and the staff would pass you on to a similar college where possible.

At the end of the day, how 'popular' a college is would (I expect) vary as its the subject staff that choose successful applicants regardless of college choice.

Also, I'm sure open applicants are already 'random' and used to fill spaces at so-called 'unpopular' colleges anyway.

The only way the random college allocation could be truly fair is if a) the colleges were more unified with the same facilities, traditions etc in all so it wouldn't matter or b) made more subject-specific, like oxford, although that may influence who applies and to what subject.

Reply 10

ebowey

OP

6

some good points here. the reason I chose castle was because it is opposite the cathedral and close to the theology department. People choose colleges for all different reasons

Reply 11

oldlady

5

Original post

by dragonkeeper999

Although, the previous system at Durham is much better in my opinion that similar systems such as those at Oxbridge, as you're chance of getting an offer is in no way affected by which college you apply to, and the entrance requirements are set by the university rather than the college (which is much fairer).

Yes, good point - of course Oxbridge colleges are trying to make decisions on academic grounds rather than social, but yes, they're only making decisions between their college applicants, not the whole applicant cohort, which can lead to inequity. Some subjects/colleges are better than others at trying to ensure good applicants in an over-subscribed college get redirected elsewhere. Cambridge pooling maybe does this a bit better than Oxford.

Reply 12

Dovegrey

What about prospective choral and organ scholars, who will have chosen a college for the musical opportunities offered? The new "random" system does not seem to take account of this, which will surely be to the detriment of those (few) colleges that offer these scholarships.
There is no place at the moment for applicants to flag up the fact that they wish to apply for these specialist scholarships. (At least with Oxbridge, you have to tick a box early on in the process to say that you intend applying for an organ or choral award. Of course you have to get the academic offer first, but then the secondary consideration kicks in.)

I suspect that applicants who are randomly assigned, for example, to a college known for sport and where there are no opportunities to sing with an established and well regarded choir will vote with their feet, Durham's excellent reputation notwithstanding.

I also think it quite wrong, as a matter of principle, for the system to be changed in the middle of an academic recruitment year. So much for fairness and transparency!

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