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    (Original post by Big P)
    How did hitler mange to demonise jews? the same way we make refugees out to be in this country. The tabloids are constantly making us believe that they are a threat and the cause of many problems in this country. The only way to stop it is to write to newspapers and get them to stop making it seem as they are the root of all trouble.

    For example in the cursed Daily Mail, they wrote an article which compared the refugees coming into this country to the Crusades in Jerusalem. Totally insane. This constant demonisation gets us to believe (if we let it) that they are right and follow the path of Hitler ...... comparable to the BNP in the way they focus the problems of the UK onto refugees.
    Although I agree that many opinions on refugees are quite racist and extreme I do not think it is completely fair to compare them to Hitlers propaganda. Hitler advocated that Jews should be exterminated, few media today want us to exterminate people from foreign background. The main problem in todays society is when people fail to keep a balanced and moderate view. There are obviously some problems linked to immigration and the process of integrating immigrants into society, but when people start to incinuate that tha majority off all crime is due to immigration, then it has gone to far. A quite interesting twist to this idea was emphasized by a Norwegian left-wing party arguing that since the members of the anti-immigrational norwegian "progress party" had a worse average criminal reckord than the immigrants they wanted to throw out of the country without regard to human rights, their entire policy implied that it would be fair to throw the progress party out of politics without regard to democracy. Now, I recignise that some immigrants are criminals (just as some of the domestic population is composed of criminals) and I do agree that those who apply for a residence permit should have it withdrawn if found guilty of any serious violations. However, this must be done on a case by case basis. You cannot judge an entire people on the actions of a minority of criminals. Also, whereas I think we should give help to refugees and asylum seekers, there is a certain limit to how many we are able to help in the long run. If we help a to large number of asylum seekers today, we may be forced to cease helping refugees in the future. Refugees and Asylum seekers should be helped, but it should be done in a reasonable and sustainable manner.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    Lala, I agree with you that it was an unjustified statement to assert that all catolics hate the Jews, however I hold to it that Gibsons movie does portray some antisemitic ideas. My main problem with the film however, is that it is a long pointless violence-pornografi which totally misses out on the message of peace and love that Jesus wanted to bring forward. I strongly suspect that if Christ had seen the movie he would have turned to God and said "Forgive him, cus he has no idea what he is doing".
    I haven't seen the film, I wasn't commenting on that, especially since I do not accept Gibson as a bona fide Catholic. The anti-semitism (or not, I am wary of committing myself either way having not watched the film) of someone who isn't even one of us hardly justifies what that f**kwt Silus said and I'm glad you support my view.
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    (Original post by lala)
    I haven't seen the film, I wasn't commenting on that, especially since I do not accept Gibson as a bona fide Catholic. The anti-semitism (or not, I am wary of committing myself either way having not watched the film) of someone who isn't even one of us hardly justifies what that f**kwt Silus said and I'm glad you support my view.
    I think it is quite important cus it was the same sort of prejustice that brought the holocoust in the first place.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    I think it is quite important cus it was the same sort of prejustice that brought the holocoust in the first place.
    Oh I'm not saying that its not important, just not anything whatsoever to do with what I had posted, or to the comment I was replying to. Better place for it would be on one of the threads about the film.
    While I'm here, I'll point out that part of the reason why the film has been the subject of so much debate is because the topic inevitably is: there is neither scriptural nor historical agreement over the roles of Pilate and the Jews. None of us know for sure what happened, and all the accounts we do have of it are partial either one way or the other. I'm not interested in watching Gibson's film, or anything else which is really partial, since I believe what we have is insufficiently conclusive for such attempts to be useful.
    Also I would be wary of attributing something as immense as the Holocaust to just one cause by the way. Anti-judaism has incredibly complex roots.
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    (Original post by lala)
    Oh I'm not saying that its not important, just not anything whatsoever to do with what I had posted, or to the comment I was replying to. Better place for it would be on one of the threads about the film.
    While I'm here, I'll point out that part of the reason why the film has been the subject of so much debate is because the topic inevitably is: there is neither scriptural nor historical agreement over the roles of Pilate and the Jews. None of us know for sure what happened, and all the accounts we do have of it are partial either one way or the other. I'm not interested in watching Gibson's film, or anything else which is really partial, since I believe what we have is insufficiently conclusive for such attempts to be useful.
    Also I would be wary of attributing something as immense as the Holocaust to just one cause by the way. Anti-judaism has incredibly complex roots.
    True, although I think it would be fair to say that the antisemitism in Europe taken together with the german recession and the fact that Jews were among those who handeled the ressession the best (Mainly because they owned the kind of shops which are always around and are more or less imune to external shocks) created the fundament needed for Hitler and his Nazi party.
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    True, although I think it would be fair to say that the antisemitism in Europe taken together with the german recession and the fact that Jews were among those who handeled the ressession the best (Mainly because they owned the kind of shops which are always around and are more or less imune to external shocks) created the fundament needed for Hitler and his Nazi party.
    Thats what I was going to say, economic stuff is important, also depends a lot on whether the Holocaust is considered purely in terms of anti-semitism or along with the rise of Hitler.
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    (Original post by lala)
    Thats what I was going to say, economic stuff is important, also depends a lot on whether the Holocaust is considered purely in terms of anti-semitism or along with the rise of Hitler.
    Of course, you can always discuss what you mean when you are asking for a "cause". I think the one thing we can do is to try to prevent similar ideas from getting popular again. Specially, we should ensure that the information and evidence of what happened is preserved and that future generations get to know about it. A great problem here are teh people who deny that it ever happened.
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    (Original post by horrorboy)
    i cant get my head round it. surely german ppl cud see that killing jews was wrong and some1 cud have stopped him :confused:
    Hitler did now 'persuade people he was right'. He was simply an embodiment of the anti-semitism and prejudice which was already rife in pre-war Germany. They were not his views, they were the views of an entire country, which only became worse aggravatd by the depression as people looked to scape-goat for Germany's poverty and high unemployment rate.
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    (Original post by FoxNewsRocks)
    A history lesson from an American.

    The jews built up Germany in exactly the same way(as current America & UK for that matter) in the 1930s only to have it come crashing down, and that was of their(jews) own doing also. Jews shut down every institution and business in germany in the late 1930s. They closed down the seaports and cutoff all the oil lines coming into germany. The jews owned just about everything back then also, so when they decided to screw over the German govt, they miscalculated their decision in their zeal to hurt the govt. and had it backfire on them. After the govt of germany took actions against this jewish rebellion, hitler then comitted a blunder by trying to go too far in retaliation by putting the jews into CONCENTRATION CAMPS just like America did japanese and germans during early WW2. Had he just took care of his business and not had the whole of europe on his mind, he would have been successful. ( i`m no hitler fan, he was a monster by all means but no proof of gassings has ever been proven.) They(jews) will never in a million years admit that they caused their own demise, but historical facts bare it out that they did in fact cause it. American/UK jews were the ones that cut off oil shipments to Japan, resulting in the attack on pearl harbor. Everything i`m telling you is historical fact if you are willing to seek out the information. If you depend on the "elite" media to ever tell you what really happened, it wont ever happen. Remember they are protecting their own backs by keeping most facts hidden, thats where they have and have gotten their power, the power to tell you what they want you to know, or to hide what they dont want you to know. That is the most powerful tool to control is the media, with that media control comes political control.
    The reason that Germany was in a bad state was due to the wall street crash. America took back all it's loans which caused the economy of germany and the world to collapsed. Yes there were some powerfull Jews in America, UK and germany but they weren't half as powerfull as you make out. I don't believe anything which you are making claims to. It really is a large conspiricy theory. Someone I believe it was you posted this website http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/freedman.html this is rediculous if this is you factual source then I am sorry it isn't it is conspiracy theory propoganda. Lets say that everything you say is true then that is still no reason to go and kill 6 million Jews. Our media isn't hidding this sort of thing from us I really don't understand how you can think that. Do you really have any FACTS that back up what you are saying not just one web page that is obviously anti-semitic. I have seen you on a few posts now insulting our media and I am just wondering what the problem you have with it is. Yeah it isn't perfect but neither is the American news. You are entitled to your oppinion just don't try preaching it as Fact because it isn't

    (Original post by FoxNewsRocks)
    If laws were ever passed in the USA forbidding discussing historical facts like they have done to you in the UK/Australia and other euro countries, there would be revolution in the streets. What has happened to you UK`ers? Have you wimped out? If you are not willing to standup for your rights, then you deserve none.
    We stand up for our rights in the Uk and the information is there for us. Just because we don't learn about conspiracy theories at school doesn't meant that we don't discuss historical facts. We haven't wimped out you just have to look at the UK to see that. When people were against the war thousands of people marched in London. Maybe we just think that there are somethings more important than the "forbidding discussiong of historical facts" I don't even really know what that is in reference to. America isn't exactly a country where you are free to say what you want. Your president doesn't even need to tell you what a threat is anymore he can just say that a threat is recieved. America is depriving some of our citizens rights at the moment in your war prisoners camp. Your country has even less of an idea of what human rights are tham we do. Sorry I am all over the place I am just really really angery. :mad:
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    (Original post by Little Britain)
    I am very dubious whether the German People knew about the death camps or chose to ignore them. There are arguments that the Germans knew exactly what was going on and would inform on Jews in hiding, and would kill jews with enjoyment. How can you explain away 6 million people?
    Have just been reading Hitler's Willing Executioners : Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen to help with an essay – it basically argues what many of you have – that the virulent eliminationist anti-Semitism that fuelled the Holocaust was a distinctive and intrinsic part of German Culture – but that entire society voluntarily participated in it's enactment. Quite scarily it manages to demonstrate that they cannot be absolved from the guilt of the holocaust. But whilst they can’t be cleared from this guilt I don’t think the rest of Europe can be either…after all the French were eager participants which surely indicates that that the German anti-Semitism wasn’t unique as Goldhagen makes out, therefore the blame can’t lie solely with Germany but also with the rest of Europe.
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    (Original post by waiting2smile)
    Have just been reading Hitler's Willing Executioners : Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen to help with an essay – it basically argues what many of you have – that the virulent eliminationist anti-Semitism that fuelled the Holocaust was a distinctive and intrinsic part of German Culture – but that entire society voluntarily participated in it's enactment. Quite scarily it manages to demonstrate that they cannot be absolved from the guilt of the holocaust. But whilst they can’t be cleared from this guilt I don’t think the rest of Europe can be either…after all the French were eager participants which surely indicates that that the German anti-Semitism wasn’t unique as Goldhagen makes out, therefore the blame can’t lie solely with Germany but also with the rest of Europe.
    Anti-semitism by the 1940s was an intrinsic part of Germany's 'Weltpolitik' which was a departure from the 'Realpolitik' of Bismarck - essentially since the turn of the century when Kaiser Wilhelm came to the throne there was a racial overtone to the nationalism which Germany was experiencing. Pride in all things German had been started by writers such as Jahn and other nationalists and their work had by then become very widely known. When Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in 1924 or so it just added to the hatred and distrust by the German people of the Jews whom they blamed for the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler was on the crest of a wave which was actually a trend throughout Europe - only Germany's bizarrely strong nationalism (following its unification) elected a party (the German National Socialists Worker Party - Nazis) on their social policy of political and national blame on the Jews for their position as a country humiliated by war and crippled by depression - an extreme party which offered a solution to a lot of problems + Hitler whether one likes to believe it or not was a very talented and powerful speaker
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    From a moderate read of this thread one statistic that seems to so far have been omitted (though I apoligise if someone has used it) is that Hitler never gained more than 34% of the votes in an election involving the German people. To say Hitler and his rhetoric were the majority view in Germany, is by that evidence, inconclusive at the very least.
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    (Original post by Dajoruna)
    From a moderate read of this thread one statistic that seems to so far have been omitted (though I apoligise if someone has used it) is that Hitler never gained more than 34% of the votes in an election involving the German people. To say Hitler and his rhetoric were the majority view in Germany, is by that evidence, inconclusive at the very least.
    Take into account coallitions. The Nazi party joined with similar political parties to gain votes. So as a singular party, they may not have been the majority, but they were the largest political group in the Reichstag at the time. Once this power was gained, the Nazi's were able to remove other competition, and influence the German people enough to gain a more permenant position in the country.
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    Yes you do have to take into account coalitions, but if you are looking at the question specifically you could argue that Hitler, circa the elections did not actually persuade an entire nation but had to rely on other (like minded parties yes) more moderate parties to get into power. Not that his rise was ever in doubt due to the other forces at work.
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    (Original post by Dajoruna)
    Yes you do have to take into account coalitions, but if you are looking at the question specifically you could argue that Hitler, circa the elections did not actually persuade an entire nation but had to rely on other (like minded parties yes) more moderate parties to get into power. Not that his rise was ever in doubt due to the other forces at work.
    Hitler most probably relied on Germany's desperate situation with regards to WWI and the wall street crash, two major events which made Germany's economy... well... flop. The people of Germany did not want the Kaiser back, as many people blamed him for losing WWI and signing the Treaty of Versailles (£6 billion reparations, limited army, blame for starting the war etc). Hitler took advantage of this, and after a few attempts (Beer Hall Putsch etc) he decided that the only means to take power was legally, and politically. He successfully promoted the Nazi party, with ideals and promises that appealed to Germany. Then through intimidation he made the Nazi party the strongest party at that time, and gained power. Although he may have relied on other parties, he was by far one of the strongest leaders around at the time, during power he censored anything which could suggest otherwise.
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    (Original post by FoxNewsRocks)
    A history lesson from an American.

    The jews built up Germany in exactly the same way(as current America & UK for that matter) in the 1930s only to have it come crashing down, and that was of their(jews) own doing also. Jews shut down every institution and business in germany in the late 1930s.
    In the late 1930s, Jews were being persecuted in Germany!
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    (Original post by Dajoruna)
    From a moderate read of this thread one statistic that seems to so far have been omitted (though I apoligise if someone has used it) is that Hitler never gained more than 34% of the votes in an election involving the German people. To say Hitler and his rhetoric were the majority view in Germany, is by that evidence, inconclusive at the very least.
    Not really. Hitler, as a dictator, did away with the notion of elections after becoming Chancellor in 1933. We therefore have no way of knowing what public opinion of him was in 1939/1940 etc but I expect his approval rating would be have been pretty high. Probably a lot higher than 34%. God knows, even Tony Blair can beat that!
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    (Original post by Jonatan)
    This is complete and utter nonsense. This sort of "blaming the jews" theories is typical of new-nazis today. No, I am not calling you an anti-semite because I dont agree with you. I am calling you an anti-semite because you have assumed the Jews of being behind a conspiracy like cooperation which has severely hurt Europe and America. This is utter nonsense and claiming so without eaven a fragment of solid evidence to back it up IS anti-semitism.
    You were ralso claiming that no gassings has been proven. This is also complete rubbish. Thousands of documents seized during the war confirm them.
    Show us one of these "documents". The last time i checked, not one dead body was ever found from being killed from gas. Typhoid, old age, starvation and bullets are all documented. None from gas that i have seen.

    The on-site still existant gas chambers confirm them.
    http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim...atorium_1.html
    read the very last paragraph.

    The enourmous number of vitnesses has confirmed them.
    But where were the dead bodies or even the ashes?

    The records of production of zyklon-B together with the removal of their warning irritant confirm them. The amount of human ash found close to several concentration camps (Close to aushwitz rivers has even changed direction due to them) confirms it.
    Can you document this assertion with a link or a paper supporting it?

    The only way you could possibly explain how all this evidence would be fake would be if the entire world was infiltrated and controlled as to cause us to beleive this was the case (One could wonder what need a Jewish conspiration would have to launch such a lie if they indeed did controll all the media and giovernments around Europe and America). The idea that the entire world, all its media and libraries in countries which even are greatly anti-Israeli in attitude (Take the greek media as an example) should be controlled by a jewish conspiracy is nothing but silly. This assumption, that the World is controlled by a small majority of Jews is the fundamental idea on which all the holocoust-denial theories are based.
    I dont think jews control the media of the entire world, just the important powerful parts of it.

    If you claim that all evidence which confirm that the holocoust did indeed happen is fake then you can just as well beleive that the earth is flat as a pancake, cus the magnitude of the conspiracy would have to be about as large.
    I never claimed the holocaust was faked. All i did was question some of the obvious erroneous facts that are continually perpetuated.
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    [QUOTE=FoxNewsRocks]Show us one of these "documents". The last time i checked, not one dead body was ever found from being killed from gas. Typhoid, old age, starvation and bullets are all documented. None from gas that i have seen.QUOTE]

    Are you serious? So, all the suvivors that saw people being put in them, were lieing? How do people know so much aobut what they looked like, what was inside ect. I cannot believe you said that.
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    Propaganda and their appeal to the militaristic and orderly values of the German people helped the Nazis a great deal.

    They had no idea of the atrocities committed against the Jews until near the end of the war - and if anyone protested then it was a swift arrest by the Gestapo, a quick trial where the judges were in Hitler's pocket and then you'd be shoved into a concentration camp.
 
 
 
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