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Why are Muslim's portrayed as terrorist's in today's society? Watch

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    (Original post by Goodbye)
    Just as the Tamil Tigers dont represent Hinduism

    Just as Kuldip Singh Brar doesnt represent Sikism

    Just as President Bush, KKK and Hitler dont represent Christianity

    Just as land grabbing conniving Zionists dont represent Judaism

    Just as the Murdering Budhaists in Myanmar dont represent Budhasim....

    ...is the exact reason why Bin Ladin's ideologies don't represent Islam.

    Live and let live - peace!
    Just as governments don't represent the people. They wage war with each other. If we wage war with each we are rightly called murderers. When our governments wage war we let them.
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    (Original post by Donald Duck)
    It's one rule for countries, and another for people. North Korea isn't a terrorist state (though George Bush may have wanted it to be), North Korea is a terrible regime.

    It's true with being terrorist, and essentially anything else. Just think about how the law would react to OPEC being companies instead of countries.
    Terrorist is a term use by governments on people who violently and actively disagree with what they are doing. Nelson Mandella was a terrorist. I detest both violence and hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    yes, we are the fastest-growing brigade on the forum

    you should stop acting so patronizing

    Muhammad didn't just re-enter Mekka - he launched raids further afield (such as the Muta raid aginst the Byzantines

    according to Islamic tradition, he even wrote to the world's leaders (in Constantinople, Egypt, Persia, Abyssinia etc) telling them to convert to Islam, so their persons and goods "would be safe" (sounds like a protection racket to me)

    so, don't sugar-coat Muhammad's intentions, which were clearly aggressive ... his best friends, the sahaba (including the rashidun caliphs), didn't hesitate long, and then launched all-out attacks and invasions in Persia, Middle East, North Africa...

    did they betray Muhammad's intentions ?

    Don't act as if the matter was solved. It isn't.

    I deeply disagreed with theFrozenLake, and so did many others.

    Don't kid yourself : the matter of the execution of apostates is there to stay. It is ingrained in the history of Islam. It took centuries to be established, it will take centuries to go away

    tell that to the families of those who died on 7/7 go to any popular muslim webforum, such as ummah.com or islamic-awakening, or whyislam.com there are quite a few people (how many ?) who dream about re-establishing the Caliphate, many who lament that no one is doing anything etc etc go and have a look

    you will see

    best
    The duty was to tell others of Islam. The state's interests as governmental body were to establish treaties and agreements with it's neighbours.

    "according to Islamic tradition, he even wrote to the world's leaders (in Constantinople, Egypt, Persia, Abyssinia etc) telling them to convert to Islam, so their persons and goods "would be safe" (sounds like a protection racket to me)"

    Regarding the above, yes his duty was to convey the message to as many people as possible. So 'their persons and goods would be safe'? Where is this found, and to whom, and in what context?

    And of the lands they took control of, they sent teachers to maintain madrassahs and give the people knowledge of Islam from knowledgeable people.
    And they didn't convert to Islam by compulsion, the person would only be pressured as such if they claimed/announced a different belief as a follow on from islam or tried to change it in any way.

    Whether you agreed or not is your own opinion. What the scholars have to say is a more informed opinion. And what we follow is ours. And a faulty portrayal is unjustifiable.
    TheFrozenLake's post didn't simply state a perceived opinion - it discussed different opinions. And indeed, I and many others agree with the same opinion he follows regarding the matter.

    No, but I would tell that to those who thought bin laden was recently hunted down and was thrown into the sea without evidence, and those who thought the claimed threats regarding Iraq were true, and those who believe that the US is helping Pakistan fight terrorism (such an appauling error as even the president of the country barely gives a damn).
    7/7 was real.

    Indeed, if I go to a Christian website, I may find any that wish to cleanse the world of Muslims. If I go to an atheist website, I may find people wanting to dominate the schooling system to remove religious education in the manner it existed for us. If I go to a Zionist website...well...there'll be lots there.
    I don't see your point, to summarise. I have never heard such a thing, and attribute absurdity to those that wish to pursue it, simply because of its impracticality in the world. It'd be like having a Pope - some Christians love him, others would insult him.
    Moreover, these are laymen - not the aalim ul deen. There 'dreams' bare no realisation.

    I may try looking for such in a few days - too busy atm.

    Best
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    The duty was to tell others of Islam. The state's interests as governmental body were to establish treaties and agreements with it's neighbours.

    "according to Islamic tradition, he even wrote to the world's leaders (in Constantinople, Egypt, Persia, Abyssinia etc) telling them to convert to Islam, so their persons and goods "would be safe" (sounds like a protection racket to me)"

    Regarding the above, yes his duty was to convey the message to as many people as possible. So 'their persons and goods would be safe'? Where is this found, and to whom, and in what context?
    to be fair, there is no mention of the "goods", but Muhammad's letter to Heraclius mentions that, if he converted "he would be safe". It is reported in Sahih Bukhari. The other letters (as far as I know) do not have a base in ahadith.

    In any case, there is no trace of these numerous letters except in Muslim folklore (have a look here http://fun4khyber.blogspot.be/2008/0...hazrat_14.html )

    What happens however is that we have quite some information available about Heraclius, including some written during his lifetime or little after (Sebeos) as well as some later texts (early 9th century : Chronicle of Theophanes the confessor), and there is no mention at all of this episode ( i.e. the letters by Muhammad and the meeting with Abu Sufyan) : personally, I consider it as a legend. Walter Kaegi agrees http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heraclius-Em...eraclius+kaegi

    I see that you ignore the issue of Muhammad personally sending a raid against the Byzantines at Mutah, and of the attacks led by some of the sahabah/rashidun against half of the known world.. in doing so, did they betray Muhammad's "peaceful" politics ?

    (Original post by ash92:))
    And they didn't convert to Islam by compulsion
    as I said many times, I don't believe that the early Muslim invasions and occupations were mainly driven by religion : I think that booty and taxes were the main factors, and there was - initially - little interest in converting people (as long as they paid taxes)
    (Original post by ash92:))
    Whether you agreed or not is your own opinion. What the scholars have to say is a more informed opinion. And what we follow is ours. And a faulty portrayal is unjustifiable
    why should we follow only Muslim scholars ?
    (Original post by ash92:))
    TheFrozenLake's post didn't simply state a perceived opinion - it discussed different opinions. And indeed, I and many others agree with the same opinion he follows regarding the matter
    you wrongly presented the issue as if it were solved

    on the contrary, deep disagreements persisted.

    (Original post by ash92:))
    No, but I would tell that to those who thought bin laden was recently hunted down
    why are you changing the subject ? we are talking about the UK, and about people who take terrorist threats in their country seriously
    (Original post by ash92:))
    7/7 was real.
    well, at least you realize that. But some Muslims defend the most hackneyed theories (it was MI5, the Zionists, the Illuminati, the aliens from planet Mongo etc etc)

    (Original post by ash92:))
    Indeed, if I go to a Christian website, I may find any that wish to cleanse the world of Muslims. If I go to an atheist website, I may find people wanting to dominate the schooling system to remove religious education in the manner it existed for us. If I go to a Zionist website...well...there'll be lots there.
    I don't see your point, to summarise. I have never heard such a thing, and attribute absurdity to those that wish to pursue it, simply because of its impracticality in the world. It'd be like having a Pope - some Christians love him, others would insult him.
    Moreover, these are laymen - not the aalim ul deen. There 'dreams' bare no realisation.
    ummah.com is by far not a marginal forum. Apparently, it is the most important Muslim forum online (by number of topics and posts) and the second-largest by number of users. http://muslimworker.com/top-10-bigge...forums-online/ It is full of people who advocate the return of the Caliphate, who post hateful posts against the "kuffar", who support execution of apostates etc

    and as to the "alims", well - the fatwahs by islamqa are very frequently quoted as being the "gold standard"...

    (Original post by ash92:))
    I may try looking for such in a few days - too busy atm.

    Best
    yes, have a look there, if you haven't yet ... perhaps, you will realize that you have a somehow idealized opinion of your co-religionists

    best
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    to be fair, there is no mention of the "goods", but Muhammad's letter to Heraclius mentions that, if he converted "he would be safe". It is reported in Sahih Bukhari. The other letters (as far as I know) do not have a base in ahadith.

    In any case, there is no trace of these numerous letters except in Muslim folklore (have a look here http://fun4khyber.blogspot.be/2008/0...hazrat_14.html )

    What happens however is that we have quite some information available about Heraclius, including some written during his lifetime or little after (Sebeos) as well as some later texts (early 9th century : Chronicle of Theophanes the confessor), and there is no mention at all of this episode ( i.e. the letters by Muhammad and the meeting with Abu Sufyan) : personally, I consider it as a legend. Walter Kaegi agrees http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heraclius-Em...eraclius+kaegi

    I see that you ignore the issue of Muhammad personally sending a raid against the Byzantines at Mutah, and of the attacks led by some of the sahabah/rashidun against half of the known world.. in doing so, did they betray Muhammad's "peaceful" politics ?

    as I said many times, I don't believe that the early Muslim invasions and occupations were mainly driven by religion : I think that booty and taxes were the main factors, and there was - initially - little interest in converting people (as long as they paid taxes)
    why should we follow only Muslim scholars ?
    you wrongly presented the issue as if it were solved

    on the contrary, deep disagreements persisted.

    why are you changing the subject ? we are talking about the UK, and about people who take terrorist threats in their country seriously
    well, at least you realize that. But some Muslims defend the most hackneyed theories (it was MI5, the Zionists, the Illuminati, the aliens from planet Mongo etc etc)


    ummah.com is by far not a marginal forum. Apparently, it is the most important Muslim forum online (by number of topics and posts) and the second-largest by number of users. http://muslimworker.com/top-10-bigge...forums-online/ It is full of people who advocate the return of the Caliphate, who post hateful posts against the "kuffar", who support execution of apostates etc

    and as to the "alims", well - the fatwahs by islamqa are very frequently quoted as being the "gold standard"...


    yes, have a look there, if you haven't yet ... perhaps, you will realize that you have a somehow idealized opinion of your co-religionists

    best
    I appreciate the honesty of references. As for the conversions, I stated about this in my previous post.
    I feel myself inadequately acquainted with the matters of Mutah, so I don't think it's useful for me to comment.

    Why should we follow Muslim scholars? It's only valid if we go by Muslim ahadeeth, and so forth. The view of a scholar devoting his life to Islam is much more informed than a Sheikh Google
    Indeed, you may hear what others have to say, but to do so without even looking at an expert opinion is unwise - especially in such cases, where misrepresentation is common.

    Yes, disagreements are there. But in our part of the world, it is the latter by the overwhelming majority.

    Indeed I did not state it had been solved, rather I stated it had been discussed many times, and the reference to TheFrozenLake's post was because it had a good overview of all sides of the argument.

    How is it changing the subject? I spoke of the media's exaggerations. You mentioned 7/7. I mentioned several cases that are misportrayals. Where is the change of subject??

    lol, it was hardly deniable. But the others I mentioned are simply ridiculous.

    Of course then, in such cases there is a high possibility of finding such people - standard stats. Analogy: If you jump on the exact same spot several times, you may hit the target each time. If you jump on the spot many times, you'd be likely to land off the spot a few times.
    And well, the fact that they go around posting hateful posts of the kuffar shows their level of wisdom/tolerance. Speaks volumes really.

    Yes, some people do follow islam QA a lot...? Alas, with online sources the reasoning is often provided so the observer can see for him/her-self.

    Best
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Just as governments don't represent the people. They wage war with each other. If we wage war with each we are rightly called murderers. When our governments wage war we let them.
    This is what happens when you have the power to control citizens - wars, fights, revenge
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    Look at who controls the media and there you have your answer.
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    (Original post by SlaveofAllah)
    Look at who controls the media and there you have your answer.
    Zionists?
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    (Original post by SlaveofAllah)
    Look at who controls the media and there you have your answer.
    Good lord zionists dont control the media -______- im tired of this myth being peddled. The problem with the media its geared to the alliances of the country they are in and most are incapable of being non-partisan. ( Particularly by brothers who dont know what they are on about)
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    (Original post by ash92:))

    Why should we follow Muslim scholars? It's only valid if we go by Muslim ahadeeth, and so forth. The view of a scholar devoting his life to Islam is much more informed than a Sheikh Google
    Indeed, you may hear what others have to say, but to do so without even looking at an expert opinion is unwise - especially in such cases, where misrepresentation is common.
    in a nutshell, again :

    there is no reason whatsoever to consider "Islamic scholars" as being more unbiased than "non-Islamic scholars" with regard to Islam

    of course, non-Muslims may have a negative bias towards Islam, but you can be sure that Muslim scholars will have a positive bias in favour of Islam

    In other words : you can rely only on yourself, your rationality, your intelligence, your honesty

    the best course is to widen the scope of your personal experiences and of your sources of information, and judge by yourself

    all this "learning at the feet of" some alim, guru, beloved leader etc is something from another age

    best
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    (Original post by rizzl8)
    Zionists?
    the evil lizards from planet Mongo ?
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    in a nutshell, again :

    there is no reason whatsoever to consider "Islamic scholars" as being more unbiased than "non-Islamic scholars" with regard to Islam

    of course, non-Muslims may have a negative bias towards Islam, but you can be sure that Muslim scholars will have a positive bias in favour of Islam

    In other words : you can rely only on yourself, your rationality, your intelligence, your honesty

    the best course is to widen the scope of your personal experiences and of your sources of information, and judge by yourself

    all this "learning at the feet of" some alim, guru, beloved leader etc is something from another age

    best
    -How can it be a bias if they just simply learn from written sources which non-muslim scholars would have actually looked at. If a non-muslim scholar starts saying women are oppressed, suicide is allowed (though I don't know what source they will use), muslim scholars will most likely bring out sources that say otherwise. Can you tell me a reliable, well assessed non-muslim scholar please, or at least post something that said person stated.
    Maybe I will have a look at what they say, in the end, a Muslim scholar who follows the faith will know/understand better than the non-muslim who does not, because he is the one following the faith. A physicists will not understand pure maths better than a mathematical teacher. They may have studied certain aspects, but over all the mathematical teacher will know/understand the maths better.

    -We do not have enough knowledge to make a conclusion. If you want to rely on yourself and intelligence, then go do the same studies that scholars have done to make your claim valid. Someone who has not done a certain scientific experiment will rely on other scientist who have done said experiments and accept their claim. To follow your logic, nobody who has done what a certain scientist had done will be able to make claims about a certain thing, they cannot simply rely on their intelligence and rationality if they have not done the studies.

    -Last statement is ridiculous, learning from teachers or those knowledgeable is not from another age, foolish and stupid comment.
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    (Original post by Minion)
    Can you tell me a reliable, well assessed non-muslim scholar please, or at least post something that said person stated.
    I have posted several times some of my personal favourites on here. This has little importance, but have a look, e.g. at Fred Donner (life of Muhammad) , Herbert Berg (ahadith literature), Robert Hoyland (early Islamic history) etc etc

    The great non-Muslim ancestor of Quranic studies is still however good old Theodor Noeldeke.

    As to what these people have said, you really should look them up : it is not possible to give here even a very succinct summary of their ideas.

    -
    (Original post by Minion)
    Last statement is ridiculous, learning from teachers or those knowledgeable is not from another age, foolish and stupid comment.
    i think you should adopt a better adhab (manners)

    "learning at the feet of" someone, means that you will have a special relationship with this person, as your guide and spiritual leader

    and this is from another age
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    (Original post by Minion)
    in the end, a Muslim scholar who follows the faith will know/understand better than the non-muslim who does not, because he is the one following the faith. A physicists will not understand pure maths better than a mathematical teacher. They may have studied certain aspects, but over all the mathematical teacher will know/understand the maths better
    religion is not an exact science, and in any case there are non-Muslims who have also dedicated their entire academic career - if not their entire life - to the study of Islam. Their expertise is just as good as the one by Muslim scholars. Read both.

    However, religion is supposed to be clear and well within the reach of any "honest" person : truth, allegedly, "clearly stands out from error"

    So, to equate it with advanced scientific subjects is disingenuous.

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    (Original post by mariachi)
    I have posted several times some of my personal favourites on here. This has little importance, but have a look, e.g. at Fred Donner (life of Muhammad) , Herbert Berg (ahadith literature), Robert Hoyland (early Islamic history) etc etc

    The great non-Muslim ancestor of Quranic studies is still however good old Theodor Noeldeke.

    As to what these people have said, you really should look them up : it is not possible to give here even a very succinct summary of their ideas
    Do you base your knowledge only on their sources? You must have said something on this forum that came from one of those scholars?
    Do those scholars look into the philosophical ideology of Islam, the economical, social impacts.

    Also, I would expect non-muslim scholars to know the Qur'anic arabic linguistics as well, since that is the main authority in Islam and is what Islam is based on. That should be a first thing to look for I think in someone that studies Islam, Muslim and non-muslim.

    -i think you should adopt a better adhab (manners)

    "learning at the feet of" someone, means that you will have a special relationship with this person, as your guide and spiritual leader

    and this is from another age
    I see no problem with what I said, I simply called your comment foolish and stupid, I did not say anything about you, so I don't see where the problem in my manner of critiquing your claim is

    Also, how is using someone to be your guide from another age. People use their father or mother to be their guide in life, is that from another age? Some may find their teachers to be a guide to their academic parts of their life, is that from another age?
    Using scholars as a guide to understand your faith is not from another age, you're just saying things now.
    This is natural human instincts, to use someone as a guide in life. We still use our own intellect to decide if what they say makes sense in our own minds, but we accept their knowledge and wisdom to be better than ours. We are not so full of our selves to think we always no best without any help from others. Again, your comment is a foolish one.
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    (Original post by Minion)
    I would expect non-muslim scholars to know the Qur'anic arabic linguistics as well, since that is the main authority in Islam and is what Islam is based on. That should be a first thing to look for I think in someone that studies Islam, Muslim and non-muslim.
    all serious non-Muslim scholars of Islam know Arabic.Several know also Persian, or Aramaic/Hebrew. They mostly teach Islamic history, or Arabic language, or Middle Eastern studies in University. You can check their careers online

    (Original post by Minion)
    how is using someone to be your guide from another age. People use their father or mother to be their guide in life, is that from another age? Some may find their teachers to be a guide to their academic parts of their life, is that from another age?
    Using scholars as a guide to understand your faith is not from another age, you're just saying things now.
    check what you just wrote : you wrote "scholars" in the plural

    and there lies the difference. Not one guide : several ones.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    all serious non-Muslim scholars of Islam know Arabic.Several know also Persian, or Aramaic/Hebrew. They mostly teach Islamic history, or Arabic language, or Middle Eastern studies in University. You can check their careers online
    Don't worry, I was just giving my acceptence to which type of scholar I will look for. I am not one to judge their knowledge.

    check what you just wrote : you wrote "scholars" in the plural

    and there lies the difference. Not one guide : several ones.
    ...so you have nothing to say other than go into Symantec? I personally feel it is better to follow only one scholar. By scholars I simply meant that there are many who can have the same views. If one wishes to follow many who share the same views, then that is them. I sometimes listen to different scholars who share the same view. Does not make much of a difference to be honest.
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    (Original post by Minion)
    Do you base your knowledge only on their sources? You must have said something on this forum that came from one of those scholars?
    Do those scholars look into the philosophical ideology of Islam, the economical, social impacts.
    if I have time, I may go into some sort of "intellectual autobiography", if you are interested

    right now, I don't
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    (Original post by Minion)
    ...so you have nothing to say other than go into Symantec? I personally feel it is better to follow only one scholar. By scholars I simply meant that there are many who can have the same views. If one wishes to follow many who share the same views, then that is them. I sometimes listen to different scholars who share the same view. Does not make much of a difference to be honest.
    it's not semantics

    you have to explore different, opposing positions, in order to make up your opinion

    truth is always an approximation to reality, and it derives from confronting and comparing

    bye for now
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    it's not semantics

    you have to explore different, opposing positions, in order to make up your opinion

    truth is always an approximation to reality, and it derives from confronting and comparing

    bye for now
    Well, at least we can agree on that, no point not hearing the other side, that is why I come into these debates/discussion. Since the other side don't really put up a good argument with good reasons and a claim that cannot be explained, I can conclude to think that my understanding will be sort of better.
 
 
 
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