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Reply 180
Original post by effofex
The Gulf states have all had their growth rates improved from migration. Alot of their infrastructure simply would not exist without inward migration. Of course they are selective about who enters, but they are more than willing to allow over 80% of their working male population to be foreigners. The GDP per capita metrics are also the highest in the world - none of these states pursue an immigration policy for the purpose of 'increasing diversity'. It is all about money.


There is so much wrong with such a comparison.

Massive oil wealth and very small local populations.

They do not have lenient benefit systems.

Immigrant workers (non-professionals) work in much worse conditions than in Europe.

The vast majority of immigrant workers only have temporary residency, no recourse to government assistance and no pathway to citizenship.

And even if you ignore all that the social consequences of being race replaced can never be justified with short term economic perks. Just because someone else does it doesn't mean you should.
Reply 181
Original post by effofex
Why should a guest worker be expected to 'integrate'. They are migrants who have specifically moved for work purposes. There is for example, no obligation to 'integrate' beyond abiding by local laws if you move to the United Arab Emirates for work, for example.


Neither can you expect any assistance from those Gulf state governments or expect to become a citizen. In the Gulf states the majority of immigrants have temporary work visas and have no path way to citizenship. They jealously guard who is a "citizen". As should all nation-states.
Reply 182
Original post by STBUR
There is so much wrong with such a comparison.

Massive oil wealth and very small local populations.

They do not have lenient benefit systems.

Immigrant workers (non-professionals) work in much worse conditions than in Europe.

The vast majority of immigrant workers only have temporary residency, no recourse to government assistance and no pathway to citizenship.

And even if you ignore all that the social consequences of being race replaced can never be justified with short term economic perks. Just because someone else does it doesn't mean you should.


The Gulf Arabs are not going to be 'race-replaced' since the foreign population in their nations are very male-dominated. No male-dominated population is capable of race-replacing the indigenous people since men cannot breed with other men.

You could accommodate far higher expatriate populations in Western Europe through moving to a gastarbeiter system (as theyy use in the Gulf) - the foreign workers are taxed at a lower rate (as is the case for skilled non-Western foreigners in the Netherlands) but they do not acquire citizenship. Also you can incentivize male-dominated migration to ensure that migrant population growth rates are lower.
Reply 183
Original post by STBUR
Neither can you expect any assistance from those Gulf state governments or expect to become a citizen. In the Gulf states the majority of immigrants have temporary work visas and have no path way to citizenship. They jealously guard who is a "citizen". As should all nation-states.


The migrant workers there are perfectly aware of this fact. But they are not taxed either - so thus the voting rights principle of 'no taxation without representation' does not apply either.
Reply 184
Original post by effofex
The migrant workers there are perfectly aware of this fact. But they are not taxed either - so thus the voting rights principle of 'no taxation without representation' does not apply either.


I wonder how much tax an immigrant worker that earns £15-£20k pays, hmmm? Remember immigrants are doing the low paid work the locals supposedly don't want to do. They aren't the big earners and there is that thing called a progressive tax system the Left loves so much.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 185
Original post by effofex
The Gulf Arabs are not going to be 'race-replaced' since the foreign population in their nations are very male-dominated. No male-dominated population is capable of race-replacing the indigenous people since men cannot breed with other men.


Quite right. So why exactly are you comparing the Gulf states to immigration into Europe again? The two situations are not remotely the same.

Original post by effofex

You could accommodate far higher expatriate populations in Western Europe through moving to a gastarbeiter system (as theyy use in the Gulf) - the foreign workers are taxed at a lower rate (as is the case for skilled non-Western foreigners in the Netherlands) but they do not acquire citizenship. Also you can incentivize male-dominated migration to ensure that migrant population growth rates are lower.


For one the feminists would eat you alive. But I agree a guest worker system would work if enforced religiously. The problem is several European countries have tried it, Germany in particular, and it didn't work. Those temporary guest Turks are still there generations later.

In theory I agree. Non-citizenship and if you stop working you get kicked out. It could work if you only do so with higher educated workers because they are far less likely to disappear and employers are less likely to hire them illegally.

Of course we have bleeding heart liberals bemoaning how you cannot kick out a worker because his kids were born here. I want what you suggested but the overall paradigm of the European countries making their own well-being and best interests subservient to everyone else is the major stumbling block.
Reply 186
- their willingness to accept low pay helps drive down wages for large numbers of people in this country
- they take the jobs/opportunities of people born here
- they 'dilute' in indigenous culture here
Reply 187
Original post by STBUR
I suppose you can ignore the increase in immigrants in London and the 3/4 of a million white British that have left it and pretend that for some reason only white British people in London have suddenly begun to rape more even as their number have dropped drastically.

Since the government/police doesn't release this sort of data, or at least make it difficult. But the trend is self evident. And if the above was not the case the government would definitely make sure the information is published far and wide to support their "success".

Just pick up a book or two about this topic, they will reference their sources.


Some nations change the definition of what is classified as 'rape' which can lead to changes in conviction rates (e.g. Sweden).

If they British government are fully aware of the overrepresentation of foreigners in the rapists' profiles, how come they do not allow their health authorities to pemit prescription of medication that suppresses the male sex drive to foreigners (with the latter bearing the cost)? As I said before, I'm sure the Gulf states allow this, given the skewed gender ratio amongst the working population there.
Reply 188
Original post by effofex
Some nations change the definition of what is classified as 'rape' which can lead to changes in conviction rates (e.g. Sweden).


Yes, well Sweden also has a rape from problem with immigrants. 70%+ of rapes are committed by people of non-European descent. Difficult to verify because once again the government does not release such information.

If that was the case in the UK you would see the same increase throughout the country. You don't, it is only in certain immigrant hotspots.

Original post by effofex

If they British government are fully aware of the overrepresentation of foreigners in the rapists' profiles, how come they do not allow their health authorities to pemit prescription of medication that suppresses the male sex drive to foreigners (with the latter bearing the cost)? As I said before, I'm sure the Gulf states allow this, given the skewed gender ratio amongst the working population there.


I am not sure how serious you are with this comment. I didn't even know that is possible but even if it is you know very well that no government in Europe would be able to do this due to Human Rights and Racial Discrimination activists/lawyers/media etc.

It is not enforceable anyway. You can prescribe it but you can't exactly force people to use it. Finally, why should Europeans foot the bill for this when the immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place?
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 189
Original post by STBUR
I wonder how much tax an immigrant worker that earns £15-£20k pays, hmmm? Remember immigrants are doing the low paid work the locals supposedly don't want to do. They aren't the big earners and there is that thing called a progressive tax system the Left loves so much.


If the immigrant worker is a single man with no dependents then he is not likely to require use of public services which are free at the point of use in the UK (healthcare, education etc.) so it is more than possible that he can be a net contributor even on a salary less than GBP 20k. Furthermore, if he is a young, single man then it is likely that he has more time which he can devote to work (i.e. he will be able to work in multiple jobs, on evenings/weekends etc.) which can maximise his earning power.

Actually migrant men target every section of your labour market - all the way from the lowest-skilled jobs to the highest-skilled jobs. A significant number of the big earners are migrant men - just take one look at the City of London. Furthermore if you look at any technical industry (software engineering, derivatives trading, pharmaceuticals, maritime/shipping, oil-rig construction) you will find immigrant men overrepresented - these industries tend to pay higher than the national averages.

In fact, if you look at most companies within such industries in the Netherlands, there are more migrant men - particularly from China, India and Russia in ABSOLUTE terms (i.e. not relative terms) than there are Dutch women - this despite the apparently better academic performance of Western females in their local education systems. In the Netherlands they have what is called the 30% ruling - a tax exemption to incentivize niet-Westerse allochtoon (non-Western foreigners) to locate to the Netherlands for work over other parts of Western Europe (London, Paris, Ruhr Valley & Rheinlan etc.).
Reply 190
Original post by STBUR

For one the feminists would eat you alive. But I agree a guest worker system would work if enforced religiously. The problem is several European countries have tried it, Germany in particular, and it didn't work. Those temporary guest Turks are still there generations later.

In theory I agree. Non-citizenship and if you stop working you get kicked out. It could work if you only do so with higher educated workers because they are far less likely to disappear and employers are less likely to hire them illegally.

Of course we have bleeding heart liberals bemoaning how you cannot kick out a worker because his kids were born here. I want what you suggested but the overall paradigm of the European countries making their own well-being and best interests subservient to everyone else is the major stumbling block.


Why would the feminists eat us alive? Many nations already allocate points to prospective entrants based on their lack of children (i.e. more likely to be net contributors).

Probably it is not likely to work in Germany since it is a country with high tax rates - if you are going to tax people extortionately then they will demand political representation in response. There is no reason to actually kick someone out when they stop working - you can just block their access to free use of public services and to welfare payments.
Reply 191
Original post by effofex
If the immigrant worker is a single man with no dependents then he is not likely to require use of public services which are free at the point of use in the UK (healthcare, education etc.) so it is more than possible that he can be a net contributor even on a salary less than GBP 20k. Furthermore, if he is a young, single man then it is likely that he has more time which he can devote to work (i.e. he will be able to work in multiple jobs, on evenings/weekends etc.) which can maximise his earning power.

Actually migrant men target every section of your labour market - all the way from the lowest-skilled jobs to the highest-skilled jobs. A significant number of the big earners are migrant men - just take one look at the City of London. Furthermore if you look at any technical industry (software engineering, derivatives trading, pharmaceuticals, maritime/shipping, oil-rig construction) you will find immigrant men overrepresented - these industries tend to pay higher than the national averages.

In fact, if you look at most companies within such industries in the Netherlands, there are more migrant men - particularly from China, India and Russia in ABSOLUTE terms (i.e. not relative terms) than there are Dutch women - this despite the apparently better academic performance of Western females in their local education systems. In the Netherlands they have what is called the 30% ruling - a tax exemption to incentivize niet-Westerse allochtoon (non-Western foreigners) to locate to the Netherlands for work over other parts of Western Europe (London, Paris, Ruhr Valley & Rheinlan etc.).


Many immigrant men bring wives with or do so later. If you earn £35000 you pay ~£7k tax. The England & Wales government spend that amount per capita. So there is no contribution.

Considering that non-white immigration birth rates are so high the net effect is that "single immigrant men" are a rarity. However they arrive they are contributing to local birth rates that are not native.
(edited 10 years ago)
Reply 192
Original post by effofex
Why would the feminists eat us alive? Many nations already allocate points to prospective entrants based on their lack of children (i.e. more likely to be net contributors).

Probably it is not likely to work in Germany since it is a country with high tax rates - if you are going to tax people extortionately then they will demand political representation in response. There is no reason to actually kick someone out when they stop working - you can just block their access to free use of public services and to welfare payments.


That has absolutely no bearing on the argument. Birth rates among non-white European immigrants are much higher than native birth rates. They are having the kids here.

The feminists would eat you alive for wanting to favour male immigration as opposed to female.
Reply 193
Original post by Martyn*
through work no one in this country usually wants (factory, kebab shop)

I've never heard or seen any British white person (or even a British black person or chinese person) apply for a job or work in a kebab shop. Such shops are usually family run and employ mostly Italians, Greeks, or Turks. Come to St Helens or Wigan and you'll find many young British males (mainly white) apply for factory jobs all the time. I, myself, have applied for such manual labor jobs, even taking cleaning jobs part-time. Sometimes I have been unsuccessful and found that an immigrant (mainly Polish or Iraqi) has taken the position. I once got an interview to work in a pizza place in Liverpool, and the majority of applicants who got to the interview stage where Europeans, Polish mainly. And at Liverpool when I was a barman, before I left, almost all the staff (mainly University students) were replaced by young Polish girls. After I left that place I got a job as a kitchen porter along with four other Polish people (2 females and 2 males). So I think that the notion that Brits don't want to do these jobs is simply not true. But what is true is that many employers seem to want to hire foreign workers more so than your typical British worker. The reasons for this are not clear but it seems to be based upon the notion that Brits have little or no work ethic. I suspect that the truth is that Brits won't stand for bullying and harrassment whereas foreign workers will. Whilst I was a kitchen porter the chef started bullying the porters, and only I and another colleague stood up to him, whereas our Polish colleagues stood by and said or did nothing about it. Foreign workers will also not answer back to the boss, and will work over-time without pay, something that I have witnessed myself on many occasions.

I suspect this as well. Although, all the Polish workers I have come across do have a really good work ethic as well, and Polish girls are so pleasant to look at.
Reply 194
Original post by STBUR

If that was the case in the UK you would see the same increase throughout the country. You don't, it is only in certain immigrant hotspots.


I am not sure how serious you are with this comment. I didn't even know that is possible but even if it is you know very well that no government in Europe would be able to do this due to Human Rights and Racial Discrimination activists/lawyers/media etc.

It is not enforceable anyway. You can prescribe it but you can't exactly force people to use it. Finally, why should Europeans foot the bill for this when the immigrants shouldn't be here in the first place?


Surely in the event of a rape conviction the migrant male will effectively lose his working rights, seriously compromise his earning power and have a criminal record which is very difficult to get rid of?

Surely if the migrant actually requeststhe medication himself then the authorities should provide it, ideally with the cost deducted from the migrant's salary/savings? Given the harsh punishments for rape in the Gulf States and the fact that many migrant men working there will have girlfriends/partners in their home nations to whom they do not wish to be unfaithful I am sure many will voluntarily want to take the medication.

Since I am moving from the Netherlands to England for work I actually asked for the medication (since in England you can't visit a sex worker safely, anonymously and legally like you can in the Netherlands) but in NL they refused to prescribe (even though the cost would be billed to me or covered by my insurance, rather than by the state) - in this instance the fault here lies with the state's intransigence. If people voluntarily wish to take some medication (without state coercion) then I don't see why Human Rights groups or lawyers would interfere.
Reply 195
Original post by STBUR
That has absolutely no bearing on the argument. Birth rates among non-white European immigrants are much higher than native birth rates. They are having the kids here.

The feminists would eat you alive for wanting to favour male immigration as opposed to female.


This wouldn't be possible if you ensured that the overwhelming majority of migrants were male - men cannot breed with men. Any population's growth rate is restricted by the numbers of females there are within that population.

The 'feminists' have had very little ability to prevent the Gulf states from prioritizing male migration - they have also had very little bearing in preventing many Western companies in technical industries from hiring predominantly men (in many cases hiring more non-Western men into European offices than Western women into the same offices).
People generally dislike what is intiniscally different.

Immigrants bring with them a vary alien and sometimes dislikeable culture, moral and social values.
Reply 197
Original post by Three Mile Sprint
People generally dislike what is intiniscally different.

Immigrants bring with them a vary alien and sometimes dislikeable culture, moral and social values.


They don't have to actually show this in public though.
Original post by effofex
They don't have to actually show this in public though.


Of course they don't , though many do.

And this upsets the people who are upset by such things.
Reply 199
Original post by STBUR
Many immigrant men bring wives with or do so later. If you earn £35000 you pay ~£7k tax. The England & Wales government spend that amount per capita. So there is no contribution.

Considering that non-white immigration birth rates are so high the net effect is that "single immigrant men" are a rarity. However they arrive they are contributing to local birth rates that are not native.


*Many immigrant men are unlikely to have wives/partners in the first place - people who migrate tend to be young, single men with no marital responsibilites tieing them to one place.

*If they do have wives, you can still prevent the latter from entering the country (as is the case in the Gulf states) unless the latter are employed in their own right.

*Also, many migrant men are not going to be too happy about supporting a non-working woman in an expensive country when remittances can just be sent to her in her home country (where she is more likely to have a job, and where her costs of living are likely to be lower).

*It is more than possible to keep in touch with one's spouse through telephone, skype, email etc. if you accommodate the difference in time zones and make some time free every day. I have no problem communicating with my mother for example, despite the fact that there is often 4.5 hours of time difference.

*The 'per-capita' expenditure is an average - obviously it is going to be higher for a middle-aged Western woman with 2 young children than it is for a young, single man with no dependents. So the latter person's breakeven cost of being a net contributor will always be lower (providing that he does not encumber himself with a spouse/children).

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