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There is very little need for feminism in the UK Watch

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    Facts:

    There are no formal barriers to the freedom of women in speech, religion and employment in this country.

    Any employer that unfairly discriminates against women in employment or the provision of services is breaking the law and would be subject to legal action.

    Given that the above statements are true, I don't understand what you are all moaning about.
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    What is your definition of feminism?
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    What is it with all these anti feminist threads? Has there suddenly been an influx in bitter men whove had bad breakups or something?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    What is it with all these anti feminist threads? Has there suddenly been an influx in bitter men whove had bad breakups or something?
    I'm in a very happy relationship with my girlfriend at the moment. The reason that there are so many anti-feminist threads is because most feminist arguments are very unconvincing and poorly reasoned.
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    (Original post by desdemonata)
    And why are you moaning about feminism? I swear anti-feminists go on way more about feminism than actual feminists :eyeball:
    Not true. The Guardian, New Statesman and most university media is full of poorly argued feminist pieces. The increase in anti-feminism is a result of the increase in feminism.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    Given that the above statements are true, I don't understand what you are all moaning about.
    Sexism doesn't just consist in discrimination in law; it also takes the form of opressive societal norms and structures, and these very much still exist. Take a read through this for a start.
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    ...these threads, black or Indian girl threads and immigration threads are all that seem to get posted these days.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    Not true. The Guardian, New Statesman and most university media is full of poorly argued feminist pieces. The increase in anti-feminism is a result of the increase in feminism.
    So pick another newspaper? :dontknow: I go about my day to day life and the only times I hear anything about feminism is on TSR. Go figure :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    Sexism doesn't just consist in discrimination in law; it also takes the form of opressive societal norms and structures, and these very much still exist. Take a read through this for a start.
    I don't approve of abusive and disrespectful comments based around gender.
    As there are no formal barriers to the freedom of women in this country, what is it you're complaining about? "Some people say things that upset me" is not a matter that should be sorted by legislation, and writing angry articles in the media isn't going to stop people saying things you don't like either.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    I'm in a very happy relationship with my girlfriend at the moment. The reason that there are so many anti-feminist threads is because most feminist arguments are very unconvincing and poorly reasoned.
    Just because you disagree with an argument doesn't mean its poorly reasoned. If you really want to debate about this, post an article that you label as "feminist" and point out the flaws, instead of just whining.
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    (Original post by rainbow.panda)
    Care to take a look at the 20,000+ entries on Everyday Sexism and see if you still feel the same way afterwards? I have also posted my own experiences, I'm sad to say.
    What do you propose to do about the problems raised on that website?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Just because you disagree with an argument doesn't mean its poorly reasoned. If you really want to debate about this, post an article that you label as "feminist" and point out the flaws, instead of just whining.
    This is ironic, as most feminist articles are 1000 words plus of whining about things they don't like. For example, this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...up?INTCMP=SRCH
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    I don't approve of abusive and disrespectful comments based around gender.
    As there are no formal barriers to the freedom of women in this country, what is it you're complaining about? "Some people say things that upset me" is not a matter that should be sorted by legislation, and writing angry articles in the media isn't going to stop people saying things you don't like either.
    Feminism isn't all about changing legislation, though; you're right that legislation would be a stupid way to try to solve things like the representation of women in the media or the tolerance of sexual harrassment. But these are systemic and serious problems, and characterising them as 'someone upset me' belittles them unfairly. Increasing public awareness does have an impact, both in encouraging the breaking-down of networks of silence (in which people have felt unable to speak up about abuses because they don't want to be the only ones making a fuss when everyone else seems to be just dealing with it) and raising awareness (among the many men in particulary who are genuinely shocked to hear some of these stories, because they never realised that such abuses happen, and happen so often).

    Oh, and if you hadn't seen it, this is an excellent Telegraph piece which articulates some of what I say above.
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    Feminism isn't all about changing legislation, though; you're right that legislation would be a stupid way to try to solve things like the representation of women in the media or the tolerance of sexual harrassment. But these are systemic and serious problems, and characterising them as 'someone upset me' belittles them unfairly. Increasing public awareness does have an impact, both in encouraging the breaking-down of networks of silence (in which people have felt unable to speak up about abuses because they don't want to be the only ones making a fuss when everyone else seems to be just dealing with it) and raising awareness (among the many men in particulary who are genuinely shocked to hear some of these stories, because they never realised that such abuses happen, and happen so often).
    And what about the men who are behind these comments? What do you propose we should do to reduce their sexist output?
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    And what about the men who are behind these comments? What do you propose we should do to reduce their sexist output?
    Create a culture in which their 'sexist output' isn't normalised and encouraged. If every depiction of a woman you see in society is either as a sex object or a provider for men (to cook and clean), then it's much more natural to treat women you see in real life as objects and providers too; if society has told you that your profession is primarily a masculine one, then it's much harder to imagine a woman doing a good job, and much easier to blame gender for anything you see a woman doing wrong; if society has told you that women are supposed to look beautiful all the time, it's much easier to get angry at them for not looking beautiful. And further, if others called people up on their comments rather than letting them go as a joke, or just the way things are ('boys will be boys'), it would be much harder for behaviour like that to persist.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    This is ironic, as most feminist articles are 1000 words plus of whining about things they don't like. For example, this:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandsty...up?INTCMP=SRCH
    The article seems to make a valid point. The language we use every day reflects our prejudices. Youre against feminism not for any logical reason but because youre prejudiced.
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    Create a culture in which their 'sexist output' isn't normalised and encouraged. If every depiction of a woman you see in society is either as a sex object or a provider for men (to cook and clean), then it's much more natural to treat women you see in real life as objects and providers too; if society has told you that your profession is primarily a masculine one, then it's much harder to imagine a woman doing a good job, and much easier to blame gender for anything you see a woman doing wrong; if society has told you that women are supposed to look beautiful all the time, it's much easier to get angry at them for not looking beautiful. And further, if others called people up on their comments rather than letting them go as a joke, or just the way things are ('boys will be boys'), it would be much harder for behaviour like that to persist.
    While people are free to create this culture if they wish, the state should play no part in it. Plus, I think it is highly unlikely that any real success will result from such a campaign. Men are taller and stronger than women, and do not give birth, hence they are always going to have advantages over their equal but different female counterparts.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    The article seems to make a valid point. The language we use every day reflects our prejudices. Youre against feminism not for any logical reason but because youre prejudiced.
    I'm fed up of people constantly seeking out things to be offended by. I think it's pathetic that women are offended by statements like "man up" etc.
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    Create a culture in which their 'sexist output' isn't normalised and encouraged. If every depiction of a woman you see in society is either as a sex object or a provider for men (to cook and clean), then it's much more natural to treat women you see in real life as objects and providers too; if society has told you that your profession is primarily a masculine one, then it's much harder to imagine a woman doing a good job, and much easier to blame gender for anything you see a woman doing wrong; if society has told you that women are supposed to look beautiful all the time, it's much easier to get angry at them for not looking beautiful. And further, if others called people up on their comments rather than letting them go as a joke, or just the way things are ('boys will be boys'), it would be much harder for behaviour like that to persist.
    The media stereotypes men as well, this isn't an exclusively feminine thing. You mention masculine jobs - think about how society treats male nurses. You mention that women are expected to look beautiful all the time - men are expected to be tough and not express their emotions. Furthermore, what's wrong with this? Beauty is a trait, just like kindness, and so should be encouraged - if your friend said 'you've been acting like a **** recently', you'd be upset but might consider it. Yet, when your friend says your new hairstyle is less attractive, you complain to everydaysexism. The only reason this occurs is because of people's perception that beauty is a shallow trait, worse than intellect or kindness, which is snobbish and subjective.

    I'd just like to show that there is another way of looking at these issues other than some politically correct knee-jerk response. Sexism is bad when it actually causes harm, but there are many instances when sexism only causes offence because people have been told to take offence at this.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    While people are free to create this culture if they wish, the state should play no part in it. Plus, I think it is highly unlikely that any real success will result from such a campaign. Men are taller and stronger than women, and do not give birth, hence they are always going to have advantages over their equal but different female counterparts.
    I think you're confused about what feminism is; generally it's not a call for state action to solve all issues - like I said, it would be stupid to try to use legislation to change societal norms in this way. But if you agree that there are problems, I don't understand how you can possibly object to attempts to fix them through raising of issues and engagement with them.

    And yeah, the average man is taller than the average woman, and the average man can't give birth while the average woman can. But that shouldn't have any bearing on whether women are treated as objects rather than as people, or on whether women are seen as better leaders, or on pretty much anything else short of athletic competitions, right?

    (Original post by PythianLegume)
    The media stereotypes men as well, this isn't an exclusively feminine thing. You mention masculine jobs - think about how society treats male nurses. You mention that women are expected to look beautiful all the time - men are expected to be tough and not express their emotions. Furthermore, what's wrong with this? Beauty is a trait, just like kindness, and so should be encouraged - if your friend said 'you've been acting like a **** recently', you'd be upset but might consider it. Yet, when your friend says your new hairstyle is less attractive, you complain to everydaysexism. The only reason this occurs is because of people's perception that beauty is a shallow trait, worse than intellect or kindness, which is snobbish and subjective.

    I'd just like to show that there is another way of looking at these issues other than some politically correct knee-jerk response. Sexism is bad when it actually causes harm, but there are many instances when sexism only causes offence because people have been told to take offence at this.
    Cool, so I agree that those things are problems too; the world would definitely be better if we didn't think it was wierd for little boys to play with dolls, if we didn't tell teenage guys that they have to show no weakness, and if we didn't tell grown men that without a successful job they're a bit worthless. But I think there are two crucial differences: the first is that men undisputably come out on top, both historically and in the present. That's true in terms of economic power, political power, social power and so on. Sure, male nurses have a hard time, but it's important to remember that those nurses are inferior in rank to doctors, and those doctors are traditionally male. Secondly, it's a matter of the sheer quantity of the 'offense'. Take a look at Everyday Sexism - or better, search for the hashtag on Twitter. Read the Telegraph article I posted above. While the patriarchy screws men over pretty often, it's really nothing compared to the near-constant problems many women face just for being women. That's the reason I don't think the lens of sexism is misleading, and why I think it's legitimate to call such behaviour a problem.
 
 
 
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