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There is very little need for feminism in the UK Watch

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    (Original post by Ronove)
    I have to say I'm curious about why you keep saying this when it's already been mentioned countless times that women cannot rape men if we're talking about legal terminology in the UK. Statistics aren't going to list women being charged with or convicted of rape when it's not what it's called in the judicial system.
    Okay then, well is female on male sexual assault a very common crime? I must say I don't hear of it happening as often as male on female sexual assault. Generalisations are damaging, that was the point I was trying to make, and so saying "feminists are bad, look at these individuals doing these bad things, they speak for all of feminism" is just the same as saying "men are all rapists because look at these rape stats!"

    I was trying to draw a comparison of how the anti-feminists are approaching this debate, and also to what they are claiming feminists say and do.
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    http://do-feminists-kno.tumblr.com/
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    (Original post by Algorithm69)
    Then I won't bother. You have a biased agenda and won't accept anything I say regardless. Your ideology does not gel with facts and reality.
    Oh quite the contrary, of you can prove that women are the most privileged and protected group in society I am perfectly willing to accept that. The problem is that I have not seen any academic studies that have come to this conclusion. I do rely on facts and reality, very much so. What have I said that suggests otherwise? You are making a very personal claim about me that is unwarranted. I have not made a personal attack on you, so please do not do so to me. It makes any intellectual and productive discussion impossible.
    Also, I should point out that the feminism that I count myself as a part of is not an ideology, but a method of analysis.

    If you want to say that women are the most provileged and protected group in society then you have to back this up with reliable and tested studies. You talk about facts and reality, but you do not even live up to your own expectations.
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    (Original post by Algorithm69)
    Myth


    Rape trials adhere to the same standards as any other criminal trial. Guilt must be proven beyond reasonable doubt. If that doesn't happen, it's simply tough. You cannot seriously be saying you want lower standards when proving guilt in rape trials?

    Then more women should enter politics. Maybe it's a profession most women simply don't want to enter (but of course that's not actually their choice, is it? It's the oppression of the Patriarchy, right?) With the existence of all-women shortlists, and the fact that women vote more than men, I'd have to say maybe women should stop voting for men if they want more women in politics. Thankfully it seems most women simply vote based on polices and not the gender of a particular candidate.

    unbiased source?

    Most men could say the same. Stop whining.

    Most men are very apprehensive walking alone at night. However, you might just be incredibly paranoid. All men are rapists, afterall, right?

    How many men go out on a Saturday night wearing nothing but a belt and bra?
    1. Yes, women still do not get equal pay for doing the same job. A recent study found that women on average earn 9,6 % less for doing the same job, and the gender pay gap is at risk of increasing for the first time on record. http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2012...l-time-workers

    2. I am not saying that we should lower the standards when it comes to proving guilt in rape cases. I am saying that we have to try and find better methods for dealing with rape. You do not think that 90% of women who report rape each year are lying?

    3. As far as I am aware only Labour have an all women shortlist. And yes, I do believe that women are unfavoured in politics because women are expected to act as men. Do I have to even mention Thatcher? I believe she even said something along the lines that you have to act as a man, because politics is a man's world, but don't quote me on that one.

    4. Yes women are the hardest hit group of the government cuts. There are plenty of sources out there to confirm this. One example: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...m-women-154442

    5. Yes I do not doubt that men are also victims of sexism, but that is not my point. My point is that women experience sexism. Any form of sexism is wrong in my opinion.

    6. Really? That might be the case, but not for any of the men that I know. And I do not think I am being paranoid as I find myself receiving sexist comments by by-standers on my street even in broad daylight. Unfortunately I live in a very unsafe student area.

    7. "How many men go out wearing nothing but a belt and a bra".
    Do you seriously think that they way women dress is the reason they get raped? If so, you have a far more negative view of men that what I have. You are suggesting that some men simply cannot help themselves but rape. People rape because they are rapists and they seek power and domination, not because of the way someone dress. This is well documented. I can look up studies if you so wish?
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    Looking at the left wing and ironically named 'Liberal Conspiracy' website, it would appear that a report into just that point in #2 has been dealt with for the first time by a recent study/report...

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2013/03...f-rape-report/
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    Sexism doesn't just consist in discrimination in law; it also takes the form of opressive societal norms and structures, and these very much still exist. Take a read through this for a start.
    Cat 2013-03-09 11:26
    I was out on a run when I got beeped at by some tool. This happens a lot - when cycling,walking etc ... I'm just shocked that most guys seem to only pay a girl any attention if they find her attractive and want some sort of sexual relationship with. I'm being unfair, but that's always been my experience. It's this general acceptance of women being a sexual object first, a person after that's so hard to stomach.

    Sara 2013-03-09 11:09
    Walking to the gym. Car beeps behind me. I ignore it. Same car passes me by and it's still beeping. i don't turn around.

    Sarah via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:17
    I was walking down the road today and three men started wolf whistling and shouting "very nice!" Made me feel awful

    > Obviously some of the other examples are unacceptable, but I think the reason so many men have issue with feminism is when there appears to be a double standard about objectifying the opposite sex. I remember being in the Uni Canteen with some girls off my course, listening to them rant about feminism and their respective experiences of catcalling and wolf-whistling. Despite them trying to justify their complaints by saying it was that they were being viewed primarily as sexual objects which offended them, I think the primary reason they didn't like it was actually just that they weren't attracted to the guys who were whistling/catcalling. I know that of those 3 girls, I have seen two of them whistled at in the street and all of them flirted with or approached by guys in night clubs. When the guy is attractive they find the forward-style of flirting really hot, but if they think they're out of his league, too old, too young, too ugly, then suddenly it's as if this guy has committed this really serious crime against them but nobody else understands how bad it is! I can easily imagine if these women had been attracted to these men that the notes would read very differently...

    e.g. Sarah via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:17
    I was walking down the road today and three hench men started wolf whistling and shouting "very nice!" Made me feel great

    ^A crude example, but I hope you get my point. If a woman wants to oppose every single time a guy flirts with her, catcalls, wolf-whistles or approaches her in a club then fair enough. If she enjoys that response from some guys though, then it doesn't seem right to complain about it when it happens from people she isn't attracted to.

    Bear in mind I'm not including the more extreme examples in this. I think groping is wrong, and tailing someone or refusing to take no for an answer is entering the grounds of harassment.


    Emma via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:24
    "A young man&his pregnant wife were killed". Why not "a pregnant woman&her young husband..."? In life, in death, worth less.

    ^again, plucking minor details out and making a fuss. There are only two ways that the writer could have phrased that, and the Mr and Mrs format is the traditional one.

    Note the everyday sexism blog is all about drawing notice to the sexism faced by women only


    Nano 2013-03-08 16:26
    So glad I found this site, I think I'm about to become a regular. No specific instance for now, just a link to a YT vid - could be any of many such vids. I actually didn't even watch it since I find myself opposing the view of this CNN newswoman, but check out the comments. They include such highbrow analyses as, someone should gut this *****; she should choke on a ****; Jane, you ignorant slut (thanks, SNL); when your mother was pregnant I'd have not only paid for but performed the abortion; Amerikunt women all over that ****** ****; etc. Does anyone here believe that Rand Paul would want this kind of support? Can anyone explain how the mentality evinced by these unabashed misogynists is consistent with the principles upon which the republic they think they're defending was founded?

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature...%3DdSYX_Uz23_A

    Just as my ex-brother-in-law confessed to me many years ago, in his own words: if they can't **** it, they wanna kill it. Look again at the comments and tell me you don't find this theme, in abundance. No hope for this species, let alone country, until men return to the human race. That's why this site is so important. Keep it up.

    ^everyday sexism.

    I support feminism insofar as both genders are as equal. But when feminism goes to the length of belittling all men for their gender or justifying sexism against men through feminism I get a bit peeved.

    I know a lot of feminists (blogger/cartoonist Taylor-Ruth) included who seem to think that men who support feminism but also express feelings about sexism aimed at men "completely missed the point". But I think feminists who think like that have missed the point, in fact. Gender equality is taken more seriously than feminism by most men, because the latter, in this day and age, seems oddly sexist.
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    (Original post by willbee)
    Cat 2013-03-09 11:26
    I was out on a run when I got beeped at by some tool. This happens a lot - when cycling,walking etc ... I'm just shocked that most guys seem to only pay a girl any attention if they find her attractive and want some sort of sexual relationship with. I'm being unfair, but that's always been my experience. It's this general acceptance of women being a sexual object first, a person after that's so hard to stomach.

    Sara 2013-03-09 11:09
    Walking to the gym. Car beeps behind me. I ignore it. Same car passes me by and it's still beeping. i don't turn around.

    Sarah via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:17
    I was walking down the road today and three men started wolf whistling and shouting "very nice!" Made me feel awful

    > Obviously some of the other examples are unacceptable, but I think the reason so many men have issue with feminism is when there appears to be a double standard about objectifying the opposite sex. I remember being in the Uni Canteen with some girls off my course, listening to them rant about feminism and their respective experiences of catcalling and wolf-whistling. Despite them trying to justify their complaints by saying it was that they were being viewed primarily as sexual objects which offended them, I think the primary reason they didn't like it was actually just that they weren't attracted to the guys who were whistling/catcalling. I know that of those 3 girls, I have seen two of them whistled at in the street and all of them flirted with or approached by guys in night clubs. When the guy is attractive they find the forward-style of flirting really hot, but if they think they're out of his league, too old, too young, too ugly, then suddenly it's as if this guy has committed this really serious crime against them but nobody else understands how bad it is! I can easily imagine if these women had been attracted to these men that the notes would read very differently...

    e.g. Sarah via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:17
    I was walking down the road today and three hench men started wolf whistling and shouting "very nice!" Made me feel great

    ^A crude example, but I hope you get my point. If a woman wants to oppose every single time a guy flirts with her, catcalls, wolf-whistles or approaches her in a club then fair enough. If she enjoys that response from some guys though, then it doesn't seem right to complain about it when it happens from people she isn't attracted to.

    Bear in mind I'm not including the more extreme examples in this. I think groping is wrong, and tailing someone or refusing to take no for an answer is entering the grounds of harassment.


    Emma via Twitter 2013-03-08 23:24
    "A young man&his pregnant wife were killed". Why not "a pregnant woman&her young husband..."? In life, in death, worth less.

    ^again, plucking minor details out and making a fuss. There are only two ways that the writer could have phrased that, and the Mr and Mrs format is the traditional one.

    Note the everyday sexism blog is all about drawing notice to the sexism faced by women only


    Nano 2013-03-08 16:26
    So glad I found this site, I think I'm about to become a regular. No specific instance for now, just a link to a YT vid - could be any of many such vids. I actually didn't even watch it since I find myself opposing the view of this CNN newswoman, but check out the comments. They include such highbrow analyses as, someone should gut this *****; she should choke on a ****; Jane, you ignorant slut (thanks, SNL); when your mother was pregnant I'd have not only paid for but performed the abortion; Amerikunt women all over that ****** ****; etc. Does anyone here believe that Rand Paul would want this kind of support? Can anyone explain how the mentality evinced by these unabashed misogynists is consistent with the principles upon which the republic they think they're defending was founded?

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature...%3DdSYX_Uz23_A

    Just as my ex-brother-in-law confessed to me many years ago, in his own words: if they can't **** it, they wanna kill it. Look again at the comments and tell me you don't find this theme, in abundance. No hope for this species, let alone country, until men return to the human race. That's why this site is so important. Keep it up.

    ^everyday sexism.

    I support feminism insofar as both genders are as equal. But when feminism goes to the length of belittling all men for their gender or justifying sexism against men through feminism I get a bit peeved.

    I know a lot of feminists (blogger/cartoonist Taylor-Ruth) included who seem to think that men who support feminism but also express feelings about sexism aimed at men "completely missed the point". But I think feminists who think like that have missed the point, in fact. Gender equality is taken more seriously than feminism by most men, because the latter, in this day and age, seems oddly sexist.
    First of all, I think the criticisms of some feminists (I say some because we are not all the same) are the most productive and helpful that I have seen so far in this thread. So congratulations, I hope this kind of discussion can continue. I both agree and disagree with some of what you say.

    You say that you find that many feminists complain about cat-calling only when they do not find the person doing it attractive, whereas if the person it is attractive, it is seen as a good thing. You mention how some of the girls you know have criticised cat-calling, yet seem to appreciate it when they are hit on in clubs by an attractive guy. First of all, there is a big difference between a woman receiving comments when walking down a street by herself and a woman being hit on in a club surrounded by perhaps hundreds of people, including her friends. Reiciving comments when you are alone in the strees is a lot more intimidating than when you are hit on in a club. So there is a clear difference here. Personally, I find that many of the ways in which guys approach girls in a club to be intimidating as well. I know that many of my friends feel this way too, but there are obviously differences between people. I have experienced having my bum grapped by men in clubs, and that men refuse to take no for an answer. This feels very unpleasant. But not all guys do this and I always try to be pleasant and polite if a guy approaches me in a nice way.
    I think what it boils down to is that fact that when a girl is cat-called in the street and she is by herself she is vulnerable. You are not as vulnerable in a club.

    I agree with you that some feminists seem to reciprocate the sexism that they are trying to fight. I am highly against such a thing and I think it is very devastating for feminism as a whole. But that does not mean that all feminists are sexist. From my experience, there are very few feminists that go to such lengths and most feminists are opposed to any kind of gender inquality and sexism, whether directed towards women or men. Feminism is not the enemy here.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Nope, I can just see that the people who make up 90% of the world's prisons, the people who are most likely to rape or murder, the people who start wars are men. If you want to make this man vs woman, then why are men vastly the perpetrators of intimate partner death? Why are they vastly the perpetrators of rape?
    Note, pointing this out does not in any way say that all men are like this, but the same goes for feminists. Feminist theories and approaches vary so much across the globe, so how can you pigeon hole them into being a group you don't want to support? Have you heard every individual feminist argument and decided that every single one is invalid?

    Men's rights are important, all human rights are. But feminism is not about undermining male rights, it's about helping women get their rights which across society all over the world, throughout the ages has treated women as inferior to men. If you'd like to deny that go ahead, but that is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact, and it is a sad fact that women continue to be oppressed (and told we're whining if we speak out about said oppression).
    But feminism is not about undermining male rights, it's about helping women get their rights which across society all over the world, throughout the ages has treated women as inferior to men.
    Feminism shouldn't be about just getting women 'their rights'. It should be about women getting equal rights in areas in which men fair better as well as getting equal rights for men in areas in which women fair better. So I disagree completely with you. What you have written is a matter of opinion and certainly not fact.

    In undeveloped countries there would undoubtedly be more areas in which women are disadvantaged than men are but in the UK I believe the playing field is more level. I also think that if feminism is to remain relevant in the UK, it would serve useful if the majority of people who label themselves as feminists realised this.
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    (Original post by Prandtl)
    Feminism shouldn't be about just getting women 'their rights'. It should be about women getting equal rights in areas in which men fair better as well as getting equal rights for men in areas in which women fair better.
    I agree with this part.

    There is a line of feminist thought that asserts that in those instances where women get favourable treatment compared to men in such areas as prison sentences for example, this is down to sexism and a poor view and attitude towards women just as much as where women get less favourable treatment for the same reasons.

    Where women fair better, there is often an unfavourable gender based reason for it, even if the result itself, to many eyes, may seem beneficial. This goes for chivalrous behaviour (I'm all for holding doors open as long as you do it for just anybody as a politeness!), it goes for "a child's place is with it's mother" (I was brought up by a single dad, personally... the important thing is parenting, not gender), and many other things.
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    (Original post by eline)
    I call myself a feminist because I do not think gender equality has been achieved. Women still do not get equal pay for doing the same job
    Where is the evidence that women don't get equal pay for the same job? What classes as "the same job"?

    the conviction rate for rape reports is appalling
    Rape is very hard to prove. And how do you know that there aren't many false accusers? If we're willing to believe there are men evil enough to rape, shouldn't we also be open to the idea that there are women evil enough to lie about it?

    there are not enough women in politics
    There not being relatively man women in politics, doesn't necessarily equal discrimination, nor does it necessarily equal a lack of representation/support by government?

    and women are the hardest hit group of the government cuts.
    In which respects? Women were over-proportionately employed by the public sector, which was over-inflated. Women were also allowed to retire early, until recently; hilariously, feminists now complain when the retirement ages between men and women were EQUALISED.

    I also find myself being victim to plenty of sexism in my day to day life. I am scared to walk home by myself after 9pm, how many men have it this way?
    I think you'll find MEN are more likely to be attacked, than women; maybe you need to get your facts straight?

    How many men are told to cover their bodies because they might get raped?
    Being told to cover up your body, is ADVICE. There being more female rape victims is down to biology and nature. Rape may be terrible, and should be punishable to the fullest extent of the law, but a crime which is going to apply to one gender almost by default, is not an example of sexism. It's an issue, but not a sexist issue.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Things that benefit women do not automatically disadvantage men. If feminists were, for example, calling for men's shelters to be shut down in order to open up more women's shelters, THAT would be disadvantaging men. But simply opening more women's shelters does not disadvantage men, it just serves to help those in need, who clearly in that case are women.
    You do realise that there's only so much taxpayer money available? By constantly calling for shelters for WOMEN, and healthcare spending for WOMEN, and so forth, it leaves less for men. Or do feminists not understand the concept of budgeting?

    And they then wonder why cuts are necessary.......
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    (Original post by eline)
    How would giving women better maternity leave conditions disadvantage men? Would it not mean that a household (which often involves a man too,ironanically) would have more security?
    And who PAYS for the extra maternity leave? Had you considered this small point? And I notice you don't mention PATERNITY leave?
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    And since firefighters work in teams, one individual's slightly smaller body and strength is not a problem. Do you have an issue with this guy too? http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...refighter.html
    Excuse me? Because OTHERS are not weaker, it doesn't matter that one is? What the Hell? For the same overall standards to be achieved, that then puts the onus on the others to be even stronger; of course individuals' strength matters.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Why are they vastly the perpetrators of rape?
    Is that even a serious question? It's because it is far easier for a man to rape, than a woman, PHYSICALLY; it's not necessarily down to men being somehow more immoral, in this respect. A man needs to be turned on, to be raped, effectively (not that this makes it any less rape, if it does happen); a woman does not.
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    (Original post by truffle_girl)
    Is that even a serious question? It's because it is far easier for a man to rape, than a woman, PHYSICALLY; it's not necessarily down to men being somehow more immoral, in this respect. A man needs to be turned on, to be raped, effectively (not that this makes it any less rape, if it does happen); a woman does not.
    Erm, not wishing to be crude, but doesn't that refer specifically to the penis, while everybody also has an anus. In fact, where rape is a power play, for many hetero men that's a pretty humiliating thing.
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    (Original post by eline)
    Oh quite the contrary, of you can prove that women are the most privileged and protected group in society I am perfectly willing to accept that. The problem is that I have not seen any academic studies that have come to this conclusion. I do rely on facts and reality, very much so. What have I said that suggests otherwise? You are making a very personal claim about me that is unwarranted. I have not made a personal attack on you, so please do not do so to me. It makes any intellectual and productive discussion impossible.
    Also, I should point out that the feminism that I count myself as a part of is not an ideology, but a method of analysis.

    If you want to say that women are the most provileged and protected group in society then you have to back this up with reliable and tested studies. You talk about facts and reality, but you do not even live up to your own expectations.
    Are you even for real? What evidence have YOU provided, to back up your claims?
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    (Original post by Elusia)
    There is a line of feminist thought that asserts that in those instances where women get favourable treatment compared to men in such areas as prison sentences for example, this is down to sexism and a poor view and attitude towards women just as much as where women get less favourable treatment for the same reasons.

    Where women fair better, there is often an unfavourable gender based reason for it, even if the result itself, to many eyes, may seem beneficial.
    Lol. How convenient....
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    (Original post by truffle_girl)
    Lol. How convenient....
    Actually, no. It's not at all convenient. It's wrong for the attitudes towards women that underpin it, it's wrong for it's consequent effects upon men, and it's damn uncomfortable to give up anything that's beneficial to you...

    ... but there it is, and there's no good and fair reason to avoid facing it head on.

    The same goes for a certain MRA argument that "men have to buy all the drinks, so why not the other way around?".

    Yes, it's true, that many women seem to benefit from that on the face of it, but there's some less than favorable attitudes to women underpinning it. It's not a privilege, but a symptom of quite the opposite, and ought to be challenged.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Word! Feminism does so much good for the world and yet it gets such a bad rep on threads like this. + repped
    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Okay then, well is female on male sexual assault a very common crime? I must say I don't hear of it happening as often as male on female sexual assault. Generalisations are damaging, that was the point I was trying to make, and so saying "feminists are bad, look at these individuals doing these bad things, they speak for all of feminism" is just the same as saying "men are all rapists because look at these rape stats!"
    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Feminist theories and approaches vary so much across the globe, so how can you pigeon hole them into being a group you don't want to support? Have you heard every individual feminist argument and decided that every single one is invalid?
    Do you not see your own contradictions? You talk of how much good FEMINISM has done for the world, using this as part of your reasoning, as to how it musn't be criticised, and how it is, therefore, a good thing, and how you are, therefore, quite justified in your opinions; then, the moment someone points out something negative that feminists have done, you yammer on about how "not all feminists are like this". So, ALL feminists, TODAY, must take credit for the good points it has done, however many years ago this may be; but noone's allowed to criticise feminists, when it comes to anything bad that they've done?

    Feminism is a different set of theories and approaches...........until something GOOD is done, and then the fact that SOME feminists, HOWEVER MANY YEARS AGO, did this, it's part of your argument for protecting feminists from criticism.

    You really aren't to be taken seriously, so long as you adhere to contradicting sets of reasoning.
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    (Original post by Elusia)
    Erm, not wishing to be crude, but doesn't that refer specifically to the penis, while everybody also has an anus. In fact, where rape is a power play, for many hetero men that's a pretty humiliating thing.
    Seeing as women are even less able to anally-rape, than they are to non-anally-rape, that reinforces my point.
 
 
 
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