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There is very little need for feminism in the UK Watch

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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    If I had my way, then I'd make it compulsory for men to be educated (along with their sexual education, in school) not to rape people. But given it's part of a much bigger problem, a social and cultural problem where men are encouraged to chase women and woo them until they give in (a la Taming of the Shrew). It's a problem where no does not mean no, it means try harder until she says yes. There was a line in family guy - "50 no's and one yes, means yes". If a man wants to have sex with a woman, he knows he can do it - and get away with it, under the current judicial system - whether she likes it or not. I tried reporting my rape, I didn't take it to court when the police asked me what I was wearing, whether I tried to scream or fight him off, and proceeded to tell me off for being so stupid as to get in a situation where I was raped.

    We live in a society where the rapist is not blamed, the victim is. That is a huge problem, and you can't just "solve" it, like you seem to want me to - hell, if I could solve it or even knew how to don't you think I would have done so already?
    Then you'd just have people whining because it assumes that men are predisposed to rape. You're right imo though, it should be a vital part of sex education in schools, that no means no.

    I'm sorry to hear about your experience. That must have been horrible If I were you I would have taken it to court, it's the only way we can raise awareness and stop these things happening again.
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    Things such as patriarchal nuclear families still exist so actually feminism is needed in the UK.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    If I had my way, then I'd make it compulsory for men to be educated (along with their sexual education, in school) not to rape people.
    I think almost all men know what rape is and know that it is frowned upon, it's just the minority that don't care.
    why do you think education would change this drastically? It's not as if telling kids to not murder has stopped murder.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    If I had my way, then I'd make it compulsory for men to be educated (along with their sexual education, in school) not to rape people. But given it's part of a much bigger problem, a social and cultural problem where men are encouraged to chase women and woo them until they give in (a la Taming of the Shrew). It's a problem where no does not mean no, it means try harder until she says yes. There was a line in family guy - "50 no's and one yes, means yes". If a man wants to have sex with a woman, he knows he can do it - and get away with it, under the current judicial system - whether she likes it or not. I tried reporting my rape, I didn't take it to court when the police asked me what I was wearing, whether I tried to scream or fight him off, and proceeded to tell me off for being so stupid as to get in a situation where I was raped.

    We live in a society where the rapist is not blamed, the victim is. That is a huge problem, and you can't just "solve" it, like you seem to want me to - hell, if I could solve it or even knew how to don't you think I would have done so already?
    Everyone knows rape is wrong. It's no secret. Do you really think that rapists do not know they are committing a crime?

    Plenty of people in powerful positions in this country are sexist. It's unfortunate, and if the police are sexist towards you, you should make a complaint. Likewise, if there is enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that you were raped, you should press charges.

    I'm aware that the above requires an enormous strength of character, but ultimately, it's the only way anything is going to get done. Furthermore, women in the Guardian etc moaning about being told to "man up" cheapens the feminist movement and damages its credibility, thus damaging the work put in by women who want to end genuine casual sexism and lower the number of rapes.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Wrong. Would you say the same thing about a black person who doesn't apply for the same reason? Of course not.
    No, you are wrong. There is nothing stopping women from applying. There are things discouraging women from applying - learn the difference between these two words.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    No, you are wrong. There is nothing stopping women from applying. There are things discouraging women from applying - learn the difference between these two words.
    So why do you think it's ok to discourage women from applying?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    frankly I could say the same.

    words in bold just sound like Harry Potter spells to me. using lating doesn't make you sound intelligent.
    Taking my argument out of proportion to advantage your own.

    For future reference it's on par with sarcasm as far as debating goes... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    If someone chooses not to join a profession because that profession is notoriously misogynist, for instance, why should that be their problem? Shouldn't it be the profession's problem? Or society's?

    And harassment legislation can't help someone, who gets catcalled six times on the way to work by different people, including teenagers, bricklayers and businessmen, then gets routinely given the 'soft' assignment as the only woman on a team, gets left out of major business decisions because they take place in a strip club, and then goes out and gets viciously insulted and threatened for not dancing with a man in a club.
    If women apply to professions in large enough numbers and have sufficient quality in their applications, this problem would be solved.

    Sexism in this country is in decline. While some women are made uncomfortable in the workplace, the passage of time and the increasing liberalisation of society will lead to the elimination of such phenomena.
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    (Original post by Safiya122)
    Things such as patriarchal nuclear families still exist so actually feminism is needed in the UK.
    You want to eliminate families? Are you on crack?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    So why do you think it's ok to discourage women from applying?
    I never said it was okay, I'm saying we should not legislate against it, and that current methods used by feminists to eliminate the problem are proving ineffective, so they should pursue a different approach.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    If women apply to professions in large enough numbers and have sufficient quality in their applications, this problem would be solved.

    Sexism in this country is in decline. While some women are made uncomfortable in the workplace, the passage of time and the increasing liberalisation of society will lead to the elimination of such phenomena.
    What I still don't understand is what it is you seem to be opposed to. You're saying that the decline in patriarchal (it's a thing, deal with it) structures is inevitable and positive, I'm saying we should try to make it happen faster. What you seem to have a problem with is putting some of that onus on the people who are, y'know, actually perpetuating the problem.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Who are the muggers? Men or women? And stats please, I think women are far more at risk as they are physically more vulnerable and easy to target.
    The chance that a person will be mugged in a year are 1 in 296.8 for men versus 1 in 689.8 for women.

    A man is 4 times more likely to be murdered than a woman.

    Who does the mugging is irrelevant to our current discussion. If you must know, yes, men are more likely to steal from people and murder people.

    Like it makes much difference to a person wandering the streets was sex their attacker is. The point being raised was that a non-criminal on the streets would be more at risk if they are female - this is patently false.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    I never said it was okay, I'm saying we should not legislate against it, and that current methods used by feminists to eliminate the problem are proving ineffective, so they should pursue a different approach.
    Well I disagree, I think when a company is based on patriarchal structures, the fault lies not with the women who don't apply but the men who work there, and something needs to be done about that.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Thank you so much. The sentence "I am a feminist because I was raped" ought to be enough explanation, but on last week's "what is feminist" thread I was told I was worse than my rapist because I was a feminist. I just don't see why people insist on fighting feminists when all we want to do is make the world a better place
    You're welcome. On threads like this, to be honest, people who care about equality need to stick together.
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    (Original post by ed-)
    And I agree. Feminism is a completely outdated and unnecessary thing in the UK. Most modern democracies in fact.
    Some of these feminists should spend a week in Saudi Arabia before complaining that they're 'too sexually objectified' and all the other nonsense.

    Actually, I'd say that feminism, in some respects, is being used as a tool by women with inferiority complexes to attempt to oppress.
    I understand that yes sexism within the UK is no where near as bad as it is in other countries around the world, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and do something about it. You could argue that there's no point in trying to change any unfairness in society as it's probably better than somewhere else in the world.

    Feminism is about trying to change society's attitudes towards women but that doesn't mean feminists think sexism towards men does not occur. Simply sexism towards women is far more common and strong. Whether it's the way in which females are expected to both be sexy and chaste, or where women have to deal with sexual harassment throughout their life with little to no consequences for those involved. We're in a society where men are encouraged to see women as objects and until people understand that nothing will change.

    The worse part is that society now condemns feminism.
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    You want to eliminate families? Are you on crack?
    Do you know what "nuclear" and "patriarchal" means?
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    (Original post by TheBritishArmy)
    Everyone knows rape is wrong. It's no secret. Do you really think that rapists do not know they are committing a crime?

    Plenty of people in powerful positions in this country are sexist. It's unfortunate, and if the police are sexist towards you, you should make a complaint. Likewise, if there is enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law that you were raped, you should press charges.

    I'm aware that the above requires an enormous strength of character, but ultimately, it's the only way anything is going to get done. Furthermore, women in the Guardian etc moaning about being told to "man up" cheapens the feminist movement and damages its credibility, thus damaging the work put in by women who want to end genuine casual sexism and lower the number of rapes.
    I hate the term rapist. It implies that you can look at somebody and go, "oh look, that's a rapist!" All you need to do to be a rapist is be selfish sexually. When I talk about my rape experience, it was typical if you like - a stranger, outside, at night, in a deserted place. But almost every sexual partner I have had has raped me. It's horrible to admit because I don't want to admit it, but in the heat of the moment, people can be EXTREMELY selfish and that means if they want sex, they're going to get it. There are no "rapists", only people who rape, and it's so easy to do that it's near impossible to stop. The reason feminists call self defence classes offensive is that all the responsibility is placed on the shoulders of the person who will be raped. Why shouldn't men be taught not to rape, be shown how truly life ruining it is?

    Oh, and I couldn't have gone to court. I don't have proof. I wasn't "clever" enough to think ahead and try and incriminate the guy who did it by spitting on his clothes or something. I was, understandably, kind of too busy being raped to get proof. And I wasn't going to hang around for hours afterwards without showering just to be bullied by the police again. I did try making a complaint, but they didn't want to hear it. Rape victims are treated horrifically in our society, by pretty much everybody except feminists. My feminist friends didn't call me a slut (like my classmates) tell me I deserved it (like people on TSR) or ask me why I didn't fight back/scream/shout etc. (the police). They accepted what had happened, and supported me from the brink of suicide back to where I am today. They literally saved my life, because they took the time to understand and empathise.

    I will always be a feminist and I will always be eternally grateful for the kindness I have received from feminists - and I will never stand by and hear them criticised for things they supposedly believe in.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    If I had my way, then I'd make it compulsory for men to be educated (along with their sexual education, in school) not to rape people. But given it's part of a much bigger problem, a social and cultural problem where men are encouraged to chase women and woo them until they give in (a la Taming of the Shrew). It's a problem where no does not mean no, it means try harder until she says yes. There was a line in family guy - "50 no's and one yes, means yes". If a man wants to have sex with a woman, he knows he can do it - and get away with it, under the current judicial system - whether she likes it or not. I tried reporting my rape, I didn't take it to court when the police asked me what I was wearing, whether I tried to scream or fight him off, and proceeded to tell me off for being so stupid as to get in a situation where I was raped.

    We live in a society where the rapist is not blamed, the victim is. That is a huge problem, and you can't just "solve" it, like you seem to want me to - hell, if I could solve it or even knew how to don't you think I would have done so already?
    This is a perfect example of an area where the state shouldn't interfere. Everyone knows it's wrong to rape. It's up to parents, peers and general society to convey this - as with other moral values.
    Having the state teach things like this is one step away from totalitarianism in my opinion.

    I disagree that rape victims are blamed also.
    When women are recommended measures to protect themselves from rape they'd rather 'cut their nose of to spite their face' (not all women of course).
    Clearly being told off for being raped is dodgy, but the police were asking perfectly reasonable questions. Before you say rape victims are blamed you should consider how easy it is to make false accusations of rape (and how often it happens).
    But regardless, I see absolutely no reason why the attitude of the police would prevent you taking legal action against the rapist.
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    (Original post by dbmag9)
    What I still don't understand is what it is you seem to be opposed to. You're saying that the decline in patriarchal (it's a thing, deal with it) structures is inevitable and positive, I'm saying we should try to make it happen faster. What you seem to have a problem with is putting some of that onus on the people who are, y'know, actually perpetuating the problem.
    I'm saying there is not a lot we can do to change things. "Changing culture" is very difficult to do. We have laws against discrimination, the state should not do any more than that. My annoyance isn't really directed towards those who want to eliminate genuine harassment, but those who keep writing rubbish in the Guardian/New Stateman/Twitter/Tumblr that cheapens the feminist movement and makes it a laughing stock.

    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Well I disagree, I think when a company is based on patriarchal assumptions, the fault lies not with the women but the men who work there, and something needs to be done about that.
    I completely agree, but the point that you're still missing is: what is "something"?
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    No, just about getting mugged or murdered. A man walking alone is more at risk overall than a woman out alone, because a man is more likely to be a victim of non-rape crimes on the street.
    Thing is though, men do worry about that. But so do women. They don't worry less just because it's less likely to happen to them.

    The thing is, public harassment for women is much worse than for men. That's undeniable.
 
 
 
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