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President has the right to use drones in the USA on American citizens Watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Not to mention that the Karzai govt our soldiers have been dying to protect have been in negotiations with the Taliban, as have (we are told) the US.

    We simply aren't being told the truth about what is going on out there, on rather a large scale.
    Actually having been out there, I'd confirm that the media has a good handle on it. It's just dropped off the mainstream medias radar
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Actually having been out there, I'd confirm that the media has a good handle on it. It's just dropped off the mainstream medias radar
    Which side were you on?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Which side were you on?
    The good guys... Although lines are often blurred out there and it depends who you asked.


    Afghanistan is going the same way as the soviet experience. Attacks are down, the afghans will talk, peace will be declared or as close to peace as that backward sh1t hole will ever get to. We'll leave, and providing the money keeps going in and doesn't dry up like it did after the soviet collapse it'll be stable.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    The good guys... Although lines are often blurred out there and it depends who you asked.


    Afghanistan is going the same way as the soviet experience. Attacks are down, the afghans will talk, peace will be declared or as close to peace as that backward sh1t hole will ever get to. We'll leave, and providing the money keeps going in and doesn't dry up like it did after the soviet collapse it'll be stable.
    The only way it will be stable is if Karzai signs up to what the ISI want, eg, Pakistani control of Afghanistan - however, I think a much more likely outcome is that the Taliban will retake the country - who can really believe the propaganda that the 'Afghan Army' are going to successfully take over and defend the state. Or maybe there will be a rump state in Kabul with a Taliban-controlled countryside.

    At some point in the next few years, there will be a 'last chopper out of Kabul' thing with Karzai and his family fleeing to a US carrier.

    A few trillion dollars spent on it, tens of thousands of casualties - and for what??
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The only way it will be stable is if Karzai signs up to the what the ISI want, eg, Pakistani control of Afghanistan - however, I think a much more likely outcome is that the Taliban will retake the country - who can really believe the propaganda that the 'Afghan Army' are going to successfully take over and defend the state. Or maybe there will be a rump state in Kabul with a Taliban-controlled countryside.

    At some point in the next few years, there will be a 'last chopper out of Kabul' thing with Karzai and his family fleeing to a US carrier.

    A few trillion dollars spent on it, tens of thousands of casualties - and for what??
    I think it'll be more fractious than that. There have been some communities accepting the western forces, other tribes welcoming them and then the Taliban and others actively fighting against. Could see it turn into a number of smaller states. Unless someone supplants Karzai and is able to hold it together better, but I don't hold out much hope for that.

    What's been achieved? Relatively little. The nationalistic angle - as far as I'm concerned - is that it took the fight to them, rather than letting them fight elsewhere. The camps and the training have been interrupted. But beyond that, not very much. Went in with the right intentions, just with fuzzy actual aims and little to no idea about the long term of it all. Yes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but without the good intentions, what are we?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    With this having been made clear, it can only be a matter of time before it is confirmed that the US regards this as a global authorisation - they nearly always project their laws abroad, as if US law prevails everywhere.

    It is not impossible to imagine US predator drones being used over the UK, indeed, one can't help wondering if there have already been test flights. It isn't plausible that we can depend on our own supine government to defend us from this threat.
    OK, this is an OTT reaction. The statement didn't actually achieve what the Senate wanted, but rather continued to remain ambigious- which is how the Obama adminstration have benn on the drone issue. The statement wasn't intent on given global authorisation but rather answer, ambigously, whether Obama is able to attack US citizen in US.

    US won't be using the drone in UK anytime soon.
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    (Original post by 419)
    OK, this is an OTT reaction. The statement didn't actually achieve what the Senate wanted, but rather continued to remain ambigious- which is how the Obama adminstration have benn on the drone issue. The statement wasn't intent on given global authorisation but rather answer, ambigously, whether Obama is able to attack US citizen in US.

    US won't be using the drone in UK anytime soon.
    Of course not, but you don't find it bizarre that such a thing can be openly declared in a country of laws by the Attorney General before Congress??
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course not, but you don't find it bizarre that such a thing can be openly declared in a country of laws by the Attorney General before Congress??
    No. It is the US.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    I think it'll be more fractious than that. There have been some communities accepting the western forces, other tribes welcoming them and then the Taliban and others actively fighting against. Could see it turn into a number of smaller states. Unless someone supplants Karzai and is able to hold it together better, but I don't hold out much hope for that.

    What's been achieved? Relatively little. The nationalistic angle - as far as I'm concerned - is that it took the fight to them, rather than letting them fight elsewhere. The camps and the training have been interrupted. But beyond that, not very much. Went in with the right intentions, just with fuzzy actual aims and little to no idea about the long term of it all. Yes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but without the good intentions, what are we?
    When the soviets left 90% of the country was under government control. The tribes always fight as they always fight over the border in Pakistan. The mujahideen spent more time fighting each other than they did the soviets.

    whats been achieved. Life expectancy rate increased from about 36 to over 60. Re introduction of education, sanitation, electricity etc. remember its a big job but lots have been achieved with still more to do and that's why we need to not forget about it.


    your comment about fractious state is correct but that's always been the case. They'll hold it together. They always have. Different world, different culture, different mind set and different norms.
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    (Original post by 419)
    No. It is the US.
    Why not? Proportional force and all that.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course not, but you don't find it bizarre that such a thing can be openly declared in a country of laws by the Attorney General before Congress??
    Not really. They're just approving the use of one type of weapon system should the need arise. If its time sensitive they don't need to waste time discussing it.

    remember the riots? Should we deploy water cannon? Should we not? The discussion was held so next time we have riots the water cannon can be deployed by the police without government delay
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course, it wouldn't in any way influence your views that you are ex-RAF, would it.

    I thought this was a student forum, not a military forum.
    It is a student forums, a student forum where you can freely speak about any topic.

    Anyway, you're the one who started a thread about a military topic. IDIOT!
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Why not? Proportional force and all that.
    Yes and just a lack of accountability. Like with this statement, the reaction hasn't focused about the use of drone outside of us, it's been focused on how dare our government have the power to even think about attacking us in our country. Americans still overtly see themselves as superior beings to other nationals.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    And people in the military aren't allowed to have been students? Or remain on the forum to offer advice to other people wishing to join the Forces? Please don't tell me you're one of those people who assumes everyone in the Armed Forces is a secondary school drop out without any GCSEs...
    Nice to meet you again (on his site).

    She just doesn't seem to realise anything. Yeah, she probably thinks that every armed forces member is a drop out!
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    (Original post by 419)
    Yes and just a lack of accountability. Like with this statement, the reaction hasn't focused about the use of drone outside of us, it's been focused on how dare our government have the power to even think about attacking us in our country. Americans still overtly see themselves as superior beings to other nationals.

    Hows this different to just shooting somebody. Predators are a great piece if kit. Incidentally you may want to read this before you start saying the yanks are pushing people around.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone...ks_in_Pakistan

    it would appear that the Pakistanis let it happen.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course, I meant it as a reflection on the absurdity of the current situation, the main point of the thread is that the insane situation has arisen that the US Attorney can assure Congress that the US President has the legal right to target US civilians for assassination using drone strikes anywhere in the world - including in the USA! I was curious about just how far such a bizarre development could be taken.

    The truth is that the security state madness, war paranoia and 'terrorist threat' psychosis have reached fever pitch and the US security establishment and authorities are using it (as here) to demolish civil liberties and democratic government.

    If this was what Bin Laden had in mind (assuming he really was the mastermind of 9/11 - we still await proof beyond his own ramblings and US propaganda of that one) he is pretty much achieving his goals.
    If you look back in history the most powerful countries are generally bullies. The US have the most technologically advanced military ever seen, let them use this to their full capability. It'll help them scare enemies and allies.

    You really are stupid. They're making sure their military is growing and keeping up to date with modern technologies, what's wrong with that? They're trying to remain on top, a strong military helps this happen.

    You're a crazy hippie. What democracy are they destroying? In fact, they're making sure the Afghani people have some sort of democracy.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I was responding to the tone of many of the postings, which seems to be about discussing the detail of robotic warfare rather than the moral context.

    There does seem to me to be a tone of "it's all fine - relax and let the experts take care of it" coming out of the military-influenced or connected people here.

    I can't think of a single valid reason why we civilian students should take note of the words of military people on this. Over and over and over again during the last years, we have been systematically lied to about almost every aspect of these wars.

    You may be a perfectly nice military man for all I know, you may have valid points, but it's just hard to listen, given what is transpiring. At the moment, what we see is the US resorting to remote-control killing as the 'solution' to Afghanistan, when it is no such thing. It is a vile abuse of human rights and the results will come home to roost.
    I responded to your moral arguments, I clearly said that civilian casualties happen but there is a much larger, much more important goal. Small loss=large gain.

    How have you been systematically lied to? The government does not need to release all their information to 'civilian students'.

    There isn't just remote control killing going on, there are infantrymen out there fighting. It's not black and white you know. You think it's so easy to completely change a country that's been in fractions for a very long time, it's not so easy to do that. You need to intertwine with the population and the culture, we're doing that as well but we must get rid of the extremists. They're the ones that have started the war, we're the ones that are going to end it. The Afghan military is terrible. we're lending them a hand. Telling them to do this, and to do that.

    Were our operations in the Yugoslav War destroying human rights?

    Were our operations in the Gulf War destroying human rights?

    Civilian casualties happen, they happen but victory is more important.
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    (Original post by lonelybrummie)
    I responded to your moral arguments, I clearly said that civilian casualties happen but there is a much larger, much more important goal. Small loss=large gain.

    How have you been systematically lied to? The government does not need to release all their information to 'civilian students'.

    There isn't just remote control killing going on, there are infantrymen out there fighting. It's not black and white you know. You think it's so easy to completely change a country that's been in fractions for a very long time, it's not so easy to do that. You need to intertwine with the population and the culture, we're doing that as well but we must get rid of the extremists. They're the ones that have started the war, we're the ones that are going to end it. The Afghan military is terrible. we're lending them a hand. Telling them to do this, and to do that.

    Were our operations in the Yugoslav War destroying human rights?

    Were our operations in the Gulf War destroying human rights?

    Civilian casualties happen, they happen but victory is more important.
    Well there is other remote killing going on in the form of IEDs.

    its hard to transfer western values to out there. One of the most disturbing things I saw was a group of children leading a heard of goats through a minefield followed up by their father. One of our guys berated the father until he explained that his goats were more valuable than his children as they weren't of an age for earning an income. There's a reason they have big families out there. They don't expect them all to survive and life is cheap. However NATO service personnel always used western standards and always attempted to minimise the risks to civilians. It's just a pity the other guys didnt care about it as much.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Well there is other remote killing going on in the form of IEDs.

    its hard to transfer western values to out there. One of the most disturbing things I saw was a group of children leading a heard of goats through a minefield followed up by their father. One of our guys berated the father until he explained that his goats were more valuable than his children as they weren't of an age for earning an income. There's a reason they have big families out there. They don't expect them all to survive and life is cheap. However NATO service personnel always used western standards and always attempted to minimise the risks to civilians. It's just a pity the other guys didnt care about it as much.
    That's what we're trying to tell her, she just doesn't listen.
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    (Original post by lonelybrummie)
    That's what we're trying to tell her, she just doesn't listen.
    I guess she'll be getting freaked out when she reads this then

    http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1995/srg_s...-01-180604.pdf

    http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/...ce-plan-drones
    UAVs coming to the uk soon
 
 
 
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