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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    For self-defence?
    From who? :facepalm:
    There aren't a significant number of criminals armed with guns over here like there are in the US. By giving them protection you also make criminals more dangerous. Contrary to what the pro gun campaigners say the majority of criminals do not have guns and aren't able to get one. Not everyone wanting to commit crime is a career criminal with connections to others. If I was to decide I wanted to commit armed theft I would have no idea where to get a weapon and would probably end up getting myself arrested in the process of looking for one.

    The original post summed it up perfectly. You already have to be careful because of unarmed physical violence. Give people guns and its not just the big guys you need to be afraid of, it is everyone.

    Lets have a look at our current situation. Rather than guns criminals use knives to threaten innocents/ each other and innocent people also have equal access to knives. How often do we hear about criminals being scared of by armed people? Much less than we hear of innocent people getting hurt. So everyone has access to the same weapons and the innocent people aren't able to protect themselves. Someone who plans to go out and commit violence has preparation, suprise and an above average willingness to harm others. Now how is giving them guns going to change anything, both innocent people and criminals will be as equally armed as ever. The only difference is that it is much easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife, so more attacks will be fatal.
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    For self-defence?
    Self defence should be proportional, although mugging, burglary etc are undeniably awful crimes they do not warrant death.

    (Original post by Aoide)
    From who? :facepalm:
    There aren't a significant number of criminals armed with guns over here like there are in the US. By giving them protection you also make criminals more dangerous. Contrary to what the pro gun campaigners say the majority of criminals do not have guns and aren't able to get one. Not everyone wanting to commit crime is a career criminal with connections to others. If I was to decide I wanted to commit armed theft I would have no idea where to get a weapon and would probably end up getting myself arrested in the process of looking for one.

    The original post summed it up perfectly. You already have to be careful because of unarmed physical violence. Give people guns and its not just the big guys you need to be afraid of, it is everyone.

    Lets have a look at our current situation. Rather than guns criminals use knives to threaten innocents/ each other and innocent people also have equal access to knives. How often do we hear about criminals being scared of by armed people? Much less than we hear of innocent people getting hurt. So everyone has access to the same weapons and the innocent people aren't able to protect themselves. Someone who plans to go out and commit violence has preparation, surprise and an above average willingness to harm others. Now how is giving them guns going to change anything, both innocent people and criminals will be as equally armed as ever. The only difference is that it is much easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife, so more attacks will be fatal.
    Plus all of the above.
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    (Original post by Lampoon)
    Self defence should be proportional, although mugging, burglary etc are undeniably awful crimes they do not warrant death.
    No one said they do warrant death, so not sure why you are talking like that.
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    (Original post by Aoide)
    From who? :facepalm:
    From people who intend to harm you of course. Or do you think such people don't exist?

    (Original post by Aoide)
    The original post summed it up perfectly. You already have to be careful because of unarmed physical violence. Give people guns and its not just the big guys you need to be afraid of, it is everyone.
    No, you needn't be afraid of good guys, just the bad guys. All these people who say "I'd be afraid of getting shot" - Sorry, but I think that is very paranoid, and devoid of common sense. People drive past you with cars every day and cars can be used to mow you down. On occasion, someone will run someone over with a car, but for the most part it just doesn't happen and isn't something that the average person should be living their life in fear of. So some guy you pass in the street has an gun that could be used to hurt you, so what? He almost certainly won't. And for those of you who say that "almost certainly wont" isn't a good enough guarantee - That's the same level of guarantee that he won't mow you down in his car, and I don't see anyone calling for a car ban.
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    No one said they do warrant death, so not sure why you are talking like that.
    Well, if you shoot someone there's a relatively high probability they'll die...
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    No one said they do warrant death, so not sure why you are talking like that.
    If you shoot someone you are probably going to kill or seriously wound them.
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    Criminals will get there hands on guns regardless of their legality. Allowing law abiding citizens guns gives them a fighting chance to protect themselves.
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    No, you needn't be afraid of good guys, just the bad guys. All these people who say "I'd be afraid of getting shot" - Sorry, but I think that is very paranoid, and devoid of common sense.

    I'm not afraid of the 'good guys', it's differentiating between who is good and who is bad that has its issues. At the end of the day once you create an open market for weapons such as handguns you also create a almost unregulated second hand market, there is no way to make sure that guns are solely bought by 'good guys' and never fall into the hands of those with worse intentions.


    People drive past you with cars every day and cars can be used to mow you down. On occasion, someone will run someone over with a car, but for the most part it just doesn't happen and isn't something that the average person should be living their life in fear of. So some guy you pass in the street has an gun that could be used to hurt you, so what? He almost certainly won't. And for those of you who say that "almost certainly wont" isn't a good enough guarantee - That's the same level of guarantee that he won't mow you down in his car, and I don't see anyone calling for a car ban.

    A car is first and foremost a transportation device, as a weapon it is a pretty poor choice, being expensive, large, easy to track etc.

    A gun on the other hand only has one purpose (sporting events aside), to maim and kill.

    I see no reason why anyone would feel the need to permanently arm themselves with deadly force for a trip to Tesco, and if society is so broken that people feel the need for handguns and the like then surely we should try to fix society, not pump more firearms into the system.

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    (Original post by Lampoon)
    I see no reason why anyone would feel the need to permanently arm themselves with deadly force for a trip to Tesco, and if society is so broken that people feel the need for handguns and the like then surely we should try to fix society, not pump more firearms into the system.
    I feel the opposite - I can see no reason why anyone would walk around permanently afraid that everyone with a gun is out to shoot them. And that if society is so broken that some people don't want anyone to be able to carry an item for self-defence, then those people should get help for their paranoia, and not try to force their beliefs onto other people. You don't want to carry a gun because you are paranoid about them, the fine. But don't try forcing that belief onto someone else.


    You say "Oh we should just try fixing society". Ok then - Tell me how you fix it. You don't want me to have a right to defend myself with lethal force, so I expect you to be able to give me some guarantees if that's the case. I want you to be able to give me a 100% guarantee that I will never need to use a gun. If you can't give me that guarantee, if you can't promise me that my life will be safe if I give up my right to defend myself, how can you ask me to give up carrying a weapon? At least then I have a chance of survival.
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    (Original post by Lampoon)
    If you shoot someone you are probably going to kill or seriously wound them.
    Actually 80% of people who get shot with a handgun survive. And despite not having even a most basic understanding of guns, you still believe that you have a right to tell other people that they shouldn't carry?

    Also, I am not saying you should shoot someone for trying to mug you, as I don't believe that it is a proportionate response. You are acting as though I have said that someone mugging you deserves to get shot, and I haven't. Please stop implying this.
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    If people want guns in this country, they can get them pretty easy for crime or a massacre or anything.

    The only deterent is that all the parts were probably shoved up a latvian mans anus to get into the country.


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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    Actually 80% of people who get shot with a handgun survive. And despite not having even a most basic understanding of guns, you still believe that you have a right to tell other people that they shouldn't carry?

    Also, I am not saying you should shoot someone for trying to mug you, as I don't believe that it is a proportionate response. You are acting as though I have said that someone mugging you deserves to get shot, and I haven't. Please stop implying this.
    Can I just ask where that figure comes from?
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Sadly I don't think our society could handle the reintroduction of guns.

    But I agree, I think you should be able to own a gun for protection, along with for sport and purely on the basis of a hobby. Criminals have the monopoly on force in this country to an extent that is truly worrying.
    This is my belief as well - the UK doesnt have a vast amount of guns and the amount you can get is very limited.

    Allowing a vast number of guns into the country and letting people get thier hands on them will cause a massive wave of shootings both accidental and deliberate as everyone goes and gets their new oys
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    (Original post by Guru Jason)
    Can I just ask where that figure comes from?
    Sure.

    The Lethality of Firearm-Related Injuries in the United States Population Beaman, et al, Annals of Emergency Medicine 35:3 March 2000

    This was a study of 132,000 patients. It concluded that of those shot in an assault, the overall mortality rate was 20%

    The Number of Gunshot Wounds Does Not Predict Injury Severity and Mortality Cripps, et al, The American Surgeon 75:1

    This was a study on 531 people between 2004 and 2006. Their conclusion was that that overall mortality rate for a single hit anywhere was 16%

    Factors Affecting Mortality and Morbidity in Patients with Abdominal Gunshot Wounds Adesanya, et al, Injury, International Journal for the Care of the Injured 31 2000

    A study of 83 patients between 1992 and 1998, their overall mortality rate was 18%


    With long guns, the mortality rate is higher.
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    (Original post by a729)
    I agree with you - by denying guns to the law abiding population you are giving criminals a monopoly guns.

    Remember all it take for the bad guys to win if the good men do nothing (or if their hands are metaphorically tied by the law).

    Guns can help elderly and vulnerable people to protect themselves and their dependents from violent burglars

    This harrowing story illustrates my point perfectly:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg
    Don't usually disagree with you- but I do on this one.

    Give the old people a stun gun like the police or something- they don't need lead-bullet firing guns.
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    Don't usually disagree with you- but I do on this one.

    Give the old people a stun gun like the police or something- they don't need lead-bullet firing guns.
    Hi mate,

    But stun guns are more likely to go wrong?

    I've heard of people tasering themselves by accident lool!
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    (Original post by a729)
    Hi mate,

    But stun guns are more likely to go wrong?

    I've heard of people tasering themselves by accident lool!
    Hi,

    Yeh but nothing can get as stupid as the Americans wanting every single person to be armed. School shooting occurs- suddenly teachers need to be armed.

    What kind of society is it where everyone has to be armed to feel safe? It would be the pinnacle of paranoia.

    I think we have it good in this country- except we need to stop paying scum to breed.
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    I feel the opposite - I can see no reason why anyone would walk around permanently afraid that everyone with a gun is out to shoot them. And that if society is so broken that some people don't want anyone to be able to carry an item for self-defence, then those people should get help for their paranoia, and not try to force their beliefs onto other people. You don't want to carry a gun because you are paranoid about them, the fine. But don't try forcing that belief onto someone else.

    Surely you are the one trying to force your beliefs on others? And according to Gallup 95% of British people disagree with you, in fact 80% call for tougher gun laws thus you are in the clear minority.

    Of course being in the minority doesn't make you wrong (although I believe you are) however it does mean that changing the law would appease 5% of the population who feel everyone is out to get them, whilst making the other 95% very uncomfortable.

    You say "Oh we should just try fixing society". Ok then - Tell me how you fix it. You don't want me to have a right to defend myself with lethal force, so I expect you to be able to give me some guarantees if that's the case. I want you to be able to give me a 100% guarantee that I will never need to use a gun. If you can't give me that guarantee, if you can't promise me that my life will be safe if I give up my right to defend myself, how can you ask me to give up carrying a weapon? At least then I have a chance of survival.

    I don't believe that society in the UK is broken enough to warrant mass arming, the UK is one of the safest places on earth believe it or not. You make the it sound like a cross between the Serengeti and Detroit.

    Of course I can't give you a 100% guarantee that a gun would never come in handy, however you certainly can't give me a 100% guarantee that a gun will never kill an innocent person, never be used in a massacre, never be used to commit crime etc.
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    (Original post by Bart1331)
    Actually 80% of people who get shot with a handgun survive. And despite not having even a most basic understanding of guns, you still believe that you have a right to tell other people that they shouldn't carry?

    Originally I posted "
    If you shoot someone you are probably going to kill or seriously wound them.". 80% may survive, but if the gunshot leaves them paralysed, results in them losing a limb or requiring an organ transplant etc it's probably going to to effect them for the rest of their life.

    Plus 20% isn't particularly good odds, that means every hundred shootings leaves 20 dead.


    Also, I am not saying you should shoot someone for trying to mug you, as I don't believe that it is a proportionate response. You are acting as though I have said that someone mugging you deserves to get shot, and I haven't. Please stop implying this.

    If you are prepared to carry a gun in public and prepared to start waving it around then you should also be prepared to pull the trigger, and you have said yourself that there is a 20 % chance that pulling the trigger will kill someone. Plus a far higher chance that it will cause irreparable damage.

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    (Original post by a729)
    Hi mate,

    But stun guns are more likely to go wrong?

    I've heard of people tasering themselves by accident lool!
    If you can't handle a Taser then you should never be given a loaded gun.
 
 
 
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