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Euro-sceptics? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Should the UK leave the EU?
    Yes
    48
    46.60%
    No
    55
    53.40%

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    Eurosceptics are living in a fantasy world, not reality
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    (Original post by natninja)
    point 1 agree

    point 2, if we do that we would lose the ability to be able to protect our interests from the EU... whether we like it or not they are our next door neighbours...

    point 3, 4 and 5 agree - though we would never pay that fine.
    But it is much more lucrative for the UK to increase trade with commonwealth countries- i.e just think of trade possible with India (with a population of 1.2billion+ ,over twice the total population of the EU)
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    (Original post by Superunknown17)
    :ditto:

    The people who want to leave the EU are dreadfully uninformed and don't know the facts and just follow what ever UKIP/Daily Mail spouts to them. If we left the EU, millions of jobs of lost, this is because around 45% of our exports go to the EU, now imagine if a load of firms who ship to Europe as part of their customer base and now because of tariffs put in place due to being outside of the EU, this would cripple many SME's.

    With America's economy not being exactly a beacon of strength and China's slowing, we're really going to need trading partners at this point and it could be years before real Commonwealth trading routes are set up.

    As Morgsie said, we should reform it from the inside.
    Complete and utter rubbish. Millions of jobs do not depend on EU membership what so ever, they depend on the continuation of trade with the EU. Being outside political union doesn't mean the European Commission would start imposing trade barriers on us, especially when, the latest figures we have for exports show they sold us £40bn worth of goods more than we sold them, and secondly, because our trading rules with Europe are 93% governed by the World Trade Organisation so they would be infringing upon those regulations. Millions of jobs in China depend on trade with the EU, but I don't see people calling for their accession do you? And 40% of our trade goes to Europe and that falls every year. In 2008, our trade was over 50%, in 2012, it was 38-42%. Let's remember 60 countries around the globe have free trade deals with Europe without being bound by all the nasty rules and regulations, so the idea that we must be part of political union to buy and sell goods is frankly a 60 years out-of-date view.

    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Eurosceptics are living in a fantasy world, not reality
    How are we in a fantasy world? Have you actually bothered to wake up and look what's going on right around Europe in places like Greece; Nazi salutes because of this project's desire to force a currency on the people's of Europe which is not working and leading to massive social unrest? If we're not living in reality, frankly, the European bureaucrats are living in the Dark Age.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Eurosceptics are living in a fantasy world, not reality
    If that's the case then Europhiles are living in a world where UK is run from Brussels (and Berlin via their wealth) completely
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    (Original post by a729)
    If that's the case then Europhiles are living in a world where UK is run from Brussels (and Berlin via their wealth) completely
    We can be a counter-weight to Paris and Berlin
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    (Original post by JackJack)
    Complete and utter rubbish. Millions of jobs do not depend on EU membership what so ever, they depend on the continuation of trade with the EU. Being outside political union doesn't mean the European Commission would start imposing trade barriers on us, especially when, the latest figures we have for exports show they sold us £40bn worth of goods more than we sold them, and secondly, because our trading rules with Europe are 93% governed by the World Trade Organisation so they would be infringing upon those regulations. Millions of jobs in China depend on trade with the EU, but I don't see people calling for their accession do you? And 40% of our trade goes to Europe and that falls every year. In 2008, our trade was over 50%, in 2012, it was 38-42%. Let's remember 60 countries around the globe have free trade deals with Europe without being bound by all the nasty rules and regulations, so the idea that we must be part of political union to buy and sell goods is frankly a 60 years out-of-date view.

    Perfectly said

    EU net loss in funding
    EU net loss in trading
    EU net loss in democracy
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    (Original post by a729)
    Perfectly said

    EU net loss in funding
    EU net loss in trading
    EU net loss in democracy
    Complete crap. We have 29 votes in the Council of Ministers. Most people do not know the ins and outs of how the EU works and if they did then the rhetoric would shift
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    We can be a counter-weight to Paris and Berlin
    Hmm but there's no need to subsidise other countries industries at a cost to our own

    Better to be totally independent especially as WTO -making membership of EU in trade terms almost redundant
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Complete crap. We have 29 votes in the Council of Ministers. Most people do not know the ins and outs of how the EU works and if they did then the rhetoric would shift
    We have an 8% say on the rules of the union, of which we are outvoted on practically every single issue. This idea that being outside political union would leave us 'isolated', i'm sorry is just arrant drivel, when we're members of the UN, NATO and the G8, and it's those organisations that are driving peace in Europe and not this circus of a project. Look at bankers' bonuses as well; whether or not they are moral is not the issue, the issue is that George Osborne and David Cameron have no impetus to reject this cap because of the European Union.

    Let's remember that Norway do in fact have a say over the rules and regulations; I know much of the media wants you to believe otherwise, and the Prime Minister, but the country is able to veto rules it does not like that affects its trading bloc - the EEA. It did so incidentally in December 2012, it's just the Norwegian Government choose to accept most of the rules.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Complete crap. We have 29 votes in the Council of Ministers. Most people do not know the ins and outs of how the EU works and if they did then the rhetoric would shift
    That is a small % of the total votes and also many prominent positions were not voted in by the people or the MEPs

    The MEPs may be democratically elected, but not under a system of one man - one vote. Someone in Luxembourg has 10x more votes than a German.

    It has almost zero power on decision making. For example it elects the President of the Commission, but then gets no say in selecting the other commissioners. Its mainly supervisory - and even then its pretty rubbish at it. e.g its only vetoed something like 3 times in the last ten years.

    Most Council work is actually done by COREP committees. Staffed by unelected officials. At meetings of the actual Council, most decisions are rubberstamped.

    Even where there is contention, most votes are taken using qualified majority voting.

    Exactly. Take some time yourself and actually investigate how the EU works. The things I've mentioned are just a few of the problems the EU has with its 'democracy'.

    All this is without even going into the broader issues around how the EU can never be a good democracy. For example, there is no pan-European media. It may seem trivial, but without a common sharing of ideas and debates, there can't be a European demos.
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    Look, it's plain easy and simple. You cannot apply the same monetary and fiscal policy to 17 different economies, each at a different point on the economic cycle.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    If I had my way, the UK would be integrating more
    Yes, the problem has always been that the UK did not take the bull by the horns, get properly stuck in and remould the EU into something that works better and to our liking. This would have been easier than many people think - the Brits have always been highly regarded in Europe since the war and the fact that English is our mother tongue is a huge advantage as nearly all dealings in the EU are now in English. There are many times in the past where we through tantrums and walked away, when sticking it out would have worked better. Like any coalition or gathering, to succeed, you do mixture of diplomacy, leadership and playing along. Now under the silly 'Eurosceptic' influence (actually more like 'Euroclueless') we are just sniping from the sidelines and we look ridiculous.
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    (Original post by a729)
    Leaving the EU would enable us, free of EU regulations, to revert to what we have done for centuries without any help from Europe – trade profitably and freely and in our own best interests with the rest of the world.
    We didn't have a balance of payments problem in the 50s and 60s?

    Interesting :P
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    (Original post by a729)
    But it is much more lucrative for the UK to increase trade with commonwealth countries- i.e just think of trade possible with India (with a population of 1.2billion+ ,over twice the total population of the EU)
    Which is really easy because of the WTO.

    Oh, just how is Vodafone doing with that multi-billion retrospective tax bill its facing from the Indian Govt?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Yes, the problem has always been that the UK did not take the bull by the horns, get properly stuck in and remould the EU into something that works better and to our liking. This would have been easier than many people think - the Brits have always been highly regarded in Europe since the war and the fact that English is our mother tongue is a huge advantage as nearly all dealings in the EU are now in English. There are many times in the past where we through tantrums and walked away, when sticking it out would have worked better. Like any coalition or gathering, to succeed, you do mixture of diplomacy, leadership and playing along. Now under the silly 'Eurosceptic' influence (actually more like 'Euroclueless') we are just sniping from the sidelines and we look ridiculous.
    We never even agreed to sign up to this project, we signed up for the Common Market in 1975, and increasingly, sovereignty has been transferred from Westminster to Brussels without our say.
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    (Original post by JackJack)
    We never even agreed to sign up to this project, we signed up for the Common Market in 1975, and increasingly, sovereignty has been transferred from Westminster to Brussels without our say.
    Who do you mean by "our say"? It was approved by successive UK governments. Do you mean you want each UK govt action to be subject to a referendum?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Who do you mean by "our say"? It was approved by successive UK governments. Do you mean you want each UK govt action to be subject to a referendum?
    We never agreed, mostly via the Maastricht Treaty, for the EEC to evolve into the EU. We're always promised referenda from all three main parties, and all renege on it; indeed, the Liberal Democrats had it in their manifesto in 2010.
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    (Original post by JackJack)
    We never even agreed to sign up to this project, we signed up for the Common Market in 1975, and increasingly, sovereignty has been transferred from Westminster to Brussels without our say.
    That's exactly my point about why we need a referendum about each treaty
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    (Original post by Quady)
    Which is really easy because of the WTO.

    Oh, just how is Vodafone doing with that multi-billion retrospective tax bill its facing from the Indian Govt?
    To be honest they deserve it considering how much tax they've dodged paying to HMRC lol
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    (Original post by concubine)
    Don't care much for the current EU, am totally pro-'United States of Europe' as it could be a good thing if people weren't so ****ing useless, the UK remaining in the EU is obviously to our benefit economically.
    Is that obvious? Please elaborate.
 
 
 
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