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Euro-sceptics? Watch

  • View Poll Results: Should the UK leave the EU?
    Yes
    48
    46.60%
    No
    55
    53.40%

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    It may not be perfect now but i want global political influence and so we need this massive cake, though with a different design.
    the Commonwealth is a bigger cake that isn't suffering from a failed currency (the Euro)
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    (Original post by a729)
    the Commonwealth is a bigger cake that isn't suffering from a failed currency (the Euro)
    Yes but the Commonwealth will never be anything more than a free trade area at best (even more a culture diversity than the EU), economic prosperity is not enough for me. A small nation of 70 million people even if fairly rich will never match the political influence of a nation 5 times richer with 500 million people.
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    Words cannot describe how much I hate the EU.
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    Words cannot describe how much I hate the EU.
    Ditto!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    In some ways, it has been clarified that powers are vested in the nation states, not the EU. Also, when you say "power to Brussels", what you actually refer to is power to the Council of Ministers, the EU Parliament, etc, all of which are democratic institutions. Oh and as I mentioned, Maastricht and other treaty changes have been approved by each national parliament.
    Oh please...


    Democratic as the leadership of China

    The current EU president was 'elected' unopposed
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Yes but the Commonwealth will never be anything more than a free trade area at best (even more a culture diversity than the EU), economic prosperity is not enough for me. A small nation of 70 million people even if fairly rich will never match the political influence of a nation 5 times richer with 500 million people.
    The EU is NOT a nation - and I hope it never will

    The WTO and UN are enough
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    As the Leader of the Pro-Europe Society on here, it is in the UK's NATIONAL INTEREST to remain in the EU. That way we could reform it from the inside. Economics aswell because most of our exports goes to Europe.

    You cannot reform it from the outside and we would be left in isolation if we did leave
    We have the commonwealth! and the WTO, UN and EEA
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    I'm against further EU integration, but I find it difficult to believe that we would be better off by leaving the EU.
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    (Original post by a729)
    Russia has managed to trade with the EU without joining it OR the EFTA (for that matter)
    Russia is a big place with lots of natural resources. It is also an emerging economy. We are a declining economy with no resources. We must leverage our position in the EU to artificially inflate confidence in our economy and thus manage the decline.

    Also we'd save around £40million a day (Imagine if that was given back to the people of the UK in terms of lower taxes especially for the poor)
    You are hopelessly naive if you think the people of the UK, especially the poorest, would see a penny of any savings made.

    Also we'd be free from undemocratic laws and regulations been imposed upon us from an unelected body
    As recent proposals and policies have shown (secret courts, retroactive legislation, withdrawal from human rights treaties, assaults on workers' and benefit recipients' rights) our own unelected body is quite capable of imposing undemocratic laws and regulations on its own. You really think the shower of **** in the House of Commons has more integrity than the enlightened social democrats of Europe?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Russia is a big place with lots of natural resources. It is also an emerging economy. We are a declining economy with no resources. We must leverage our position in the EU to artificially inflate confidence in our economy and thus manage the decline.

    We do have natural resources- if we ignore the greens we can exploit the billions in gas and coal stored in our country

    You are hopelessly naive if you think the people of the UK, especially the poorest, would see a penny of any savings made.
    If welfare was cut and a lower tax rate for the poorest it could be- that's no excuse to waste this much money


    As recent proposals and policies have shown (secret courts, retroactive legislation, withdrawal from human rights treaties, assaults on workers' and benefit recipients' rights) our own unelected body is quite capable of imposing undemocratic laws and regulations on its own. You really think the shower of **** in the House of Commons has more integrity than the enlightened social democrats of Europe?
    At least we can vote out the current parliament but have no control over the EU unelected hierarchy

    the people of the EU are not enlightened- their policies are destroying Southern Europe- Greece is in ruins and the Med is on the brink
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Russia is a big place with lots of natural resources. It is also an emerging economy. We are a declining economy with no resources.
    Since when was a highly skilled labour force not a resource?
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    (Original post by venenecinema)
    Since when was a highly skilled labour force not a resource?
    I'm always puzzled by this phrase: in what way is our labour force skilled? Do you mean we have good higher education in engineering and stuff like that?
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I'm always puzzled by this phrase: in what way is our labour force skilled? Do you mean we have good higher education in engineering and stuff like that?
    Yes, the quality of HE in the UK means that our labour force is better equipped than that of the majority of other countries.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I'm always puzzled by this phrase: in what way is our labour force skilled? Do you mean we have good higher education in engineering and stuff like that?
    If you look at how good British expats are currently doing then yeah, British labour force is skilled and respected around the world. Plus the soft power is abundant, Britain is often viewed as a very progressive place which directly benefits its workforce.
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    (Original post by a729)
    Resources, democratic deficit, "enlightened" EU
    1. We do have resources, like 300 years of coal, and shale oil to frack, which I agree we need to get on with even if it's not crazy profitable and harder to extract than normal oil. However it's not the EU stopping us doing that, it's the NIMBYs, and, as you state, the Greens. We can benefit from trade within the EU at the same time as extracting resources, the two are not exclusive. In fact membership of the EU will greatly benefit us if we can exploit these resources and sell them to the rest of Europe in a super-grid, another long-overdue project which would only be possible with close collaboration and mutual trust between European governments.

    2. I understand that there is a democratic deficit in that "we" can't elect the whole Council of Ministers and the Parliament, only our bit of each. But that is only because you see yourself as a Brit rather than a European. In Britain you also only have a say over 1/650th of one of the two houses. And you have just as little in common, in terms of your "national"/personal interest, with someone at the other end of Scotland as you do with someone in, I don't know, darkest Silesia. Nationhood is an illusion: you even have different interests to the very poor/rich person at the end of your street. Therefore your supposed control over the British legislature is illusionary, you can only control 1/650th of it.

    If this sounds very "no such thing as society", I think it's important to realise either you're an individual or you choose solidarity with a certain group in society. Clearly you have chosen the nation-state. However, it is getting to the point now where to be competitive in the globalised world we simply have to enlarge the nation-state so it has more land.

    This is very important. It was OK when Britain, France and Spain had a lot of lovely colonial land area to exploit for labour and resources. This is the reason Germany waged war, for heaven's sake, to get "living space". All the superpowers subsequent to the colonial era have been the biggest countries: USA, USSR, China, and indeed the EU.

    So we need to start identifying as Europeans, like it or not, to maintain global hegemony, just as disparate kingdoms had to identify as English in 927-943 to provide the necessary stability to drive the Danes out of the north.

    3. In terms of human and workers' rights they certainly are more progressive than we are, and it has always been this way. It may, however, impact on productivity, look at the French for example, forever on strike. However I believe that on balance they are happier than we are and not particularly worse off.
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    There is a difference between hard and soft euroscepticism: Hard euroscepticism is we hate the EU so lets pull out and Soft euroscepticism is opposing certain policies of the EU
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    There is a difference between hard and soft euroscepticism: Hard euroscepticism is we hate the EU so lets pull out and Soft euroscepticism is opposing certain policies of the EU
    Well both are preferable to giving away the pound and ultimately parliamentary sovereignty to the undemocratic EU
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    (Original post by a729)
    Well both are preferable to giving away the pound and ultimately parliamentary sovereignty to the undemocratic EU
    Correction, Parliament chose to transfer some competences upwards to the supranational level through the 1972 Act and every single Treaty has been approved since.

    There are moves to democratise the EU which is happening at the moment
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Correction, Parliament chose to transfer some competences upwards to the supranational level through the 1972 Act and every single Treaty has been approved since.

    There are moves to democratise the EU which is happening at the moment
    Too little, too late Greece is burning because of this horrible idea of the EU

    Not by the people with a referendum at the Irish had a choice -even though they had to be asked twice till they gave the desired answer!
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    (Original post by a729)
    Too little, too late Greece is burning because of this horrible idea of the EU

    Not by the people with a referendum at the Irish had a choice -even though they had to be asked twice till they gave the desired answer!
    Actually Dr Merkel is involved in the blame game, you cannot blame one bit because power is dispersed.

    It was not the first time regarding Ireland, they did it about 10 years ago.
 
 
 
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