Join TSR now to have your say on this topicSign up now

Is it any more bigoted to hate on feminists than homosexuals? Watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    It is not bigoted to hate somebody elses opinions or because of their opinions. In fact this is a pretty good reason to hate somebody or a group.

    It is to bigoted to hate somebody because of something that is out of their control.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    It is not bigoted to hate somebody elses opinions or because of their opinions. In fact this is a pretty good reason to hate somebody or a group.

    It is to bigoted to hate somebody because of something that is out of their control.
    So the killings and violence in Northern Ireland, in Palestine, in Nigeria, in Bosnia, in Syria etc over the last few decades are all justified then? I mean, saying that religion (something people can change) and political stances (opinions) are at the heart of these conflicts by your views this was all ok? I mean maybe not going as far as killing. But to hate each other to a point that a normal society is impossible is fine?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    You can still be a bigot by discriminating against groups that can change their beliefs. It is bigoted to attack gypsies because of their lifestyle even though they could get a house and a regular job. It is bigoted to call all Muslims terrorists even though they could change their religion. And it would be bigoted to condemn gay people for their sexual choices even if they could change their sexuality. Forcing people to change their beliefs and behaviour to fit your ideal of what is right is bigoted.
    By your logic, it's bigoted to hate on Nazis, communists and chauvinism, and misandry, sexuality don't change you can't just randomly decide to be straight. I dislike feminism, but I do not dislike homosexuals and transgender, as they can't just wake up and change their mind.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by bestofyou)
    xx
    Don't be silly. There are four main sexual orientations (more if you count trans-gender, obviously), and feminism addresses issues affecting people who belong to two of them. Likewise gay rights covers two of the four, just a different pair. Your racist analogy is completely off the mark :rolleyes:
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by kelly.zheroes)
    Don't be silly. There are four main sexual orientations (more if you count trans-gender, obviously), and feminism addresses issues affecting people who belong to two of them. Likewise gay rights covers two of the four, just a different pair. Your racist analogy is completely off the mark :rolleyes:
    Feminism is not a sexuality. It doesn't matter what it covers. Feline covers every type of cat in the world, doesn't mean a tabby cat is a tiger though does it?

    As I said, feminism is a social concept that men and women should be equal or the kind that makes women better. Where you are getting sexual orientation from that I do not know. In fact where you are getting anything other than a personal choice from this I do not know.

    It seems you are saying that someone is born a feminist. So this means that I cannot go and study a bunch of books and become sympathetic to their cause and become a feminist...damn, I can't cause I wasn't born wanting women to be equal/better than men...seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jreid1994)
    By your logic, it's bigoted to hate on Nazis, communists and chauvinism, and misandry, sexuality don't change you can't just randomly decide to be straight. I dislike feminism, but I do not dislike homosexuals and transgender, as they can't just wake up and change their mind.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    It's OK to hate someone's beliefs but that's not what we're discussing here. The problem is generalising about a broad group of people by applying some extreme views and certain character traits to them which have nothing to do with their arguments. The opposition to feminism is then built on these constructed beliefs which is a way of avoiding listening to what they actually believe in. Using communists isn't a good way to support your argument as they were subject to bigotry in the US in the 40s and 50s - being banned from certain jobs and deporting people who weren't US-born.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    It's OK to hate someone's beliefs but that's not what we're discussing here. The problem is generalising about a broad group of people by applying some extreme views and certain character traits to them which have nothing to do with their arguments. The opposition to feminism is then built on these constructed beliefs which is a way of avoiding listening to what they actually believe in. Using communists isn't a good way to support your argument as they were subject to bigotry in the US in the 40s and 50s - being banned from certain jobs and deporting people who weren't US-born.
    Actually it's a perfect example as your not born a communist last time I checked, and how is feminism anything other than an ideology? Last time I checked your all socialists anyway, why would I support a group who don't support my economic interests. As a group that basically says "women are 'oppressed' so let's hate men" why on earth would I support that? That's like me saying that if I was an american and I didn't vote for Obama I'm a racist! Or if I didn't vote for Palin I'm sexist!

    To compare homosexuals to an ideology is such a low played card, it shouldn't even be on the table! Feminism did not help the LBGT community, they helped themselves!

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jreid1994)
    Actually it's a perfect example as your not born a communist last time I checked, and how is feminism anything other than an ideology? Last time I checked your all socialists anyway, why would I support a group who don't support my economic interests. As a group that basically says "women are 'oppressed' so let's hate men" why on earth would I support that? That's like me saying that if I was an american and I didn't vote for Obama I'm a racist! Or if I didn't vote for Palin I'm sexist!

    To compare homosexuals to an ideology is such a low played card, it shouldn't even be on the table! Feminism did not help the LBGT community, they helped themselves!

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That's exactly the point - communists were discriminated against because of their beliefs, not because they were born communists. But honestly there is just too much stupid in this post to bother trying to explain it. If I do make the effort to refute your points you'll only reply with something that doesn't even match what I've written.

    Edit: I do find it amusing that you won't support socialism on the basis that it doesn't support your economic interest, yet you're constantly accusing feminists of being evil because they only represent their own interests.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by bestofyou)
    As I said, feminism is a social concept that men and women should be equal or the kind that makes women better. Where you are getting sexual orientation from that I do not know. In fact where you are getting anything other than a personal choice from this I do not know.
    Straight male, straight female, gay male, gay female. Four sexual orientations, based on gender and whether you are straight or gay.
    By the way, I'm not sure where your definition of feminism comes from - not one I've heard before, or seen in any dictionary. It's definitely not about being 'better'.

    It seems you are saying that someone is born a feminist.
    No, you are saying that. You quoted me earlier, so you know I said something different.

    To clarify... someone can be born gay, and their lives would be particularly affected by gay rights issues. Someone can be born female and their lives would be particularly affected by feminist issues.

    So this means that I cannot go and study a bunch of books and become sympathetic to their cause and become a feminist...damn, I can't cause I wasn't born wanting women to be equal/better than men...seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.
    Don't do it then - you invented this point, not me. Personally, I would support righteous causes across all four segments - that would be the egalitarian thing to do.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by there's too much love)
    So recently I was told that all feminists are stupid amongst other crude and idiotic claims.

    I attempted to have the posts removed but the mods weren't sure if they could justify it (which is fair enough). Nothing was said in terms of bigotry or comparisons.

    The question that thus pops into my mind is:

    If you said all feminists have a anti men agenda and necessarily are lacking in intellect which is corrupting society, would that be any more bigoted than to say that all gays have a necessarily anti marriage agenda and are corrupting society?

    Now there are many parallels between the oppression of women and homosexuals. But this isn't about women, this is about feminists. So that doesn't include all women and includes many men as well.

    And even if it isn't as bigoted, is it still bigoted?

    Surely if someone makes those claims about feminists, and I'm a feminist, then they're making such claims about me based on a very loose and open term. There are many different types of feminists standing for different things, there are many different and diverse people claiming to be feminists.

    Edit: Many would argue that being a homosexual is something that you embody as well, and don't have a choice in. I personally don't feel like I have a choice in my beliefs as a feminist. But as gender equality has come much further than sexuality equality (there's probably a better term for that but it's not coming to me right now) and as a result the embodiment is something that's more sensitive. Because if gender equality hadn't advanced to the level it's at at the moment I think there would still be a strong embodiment feeling in being a feminist.
    In answer to the main question, yeah it is bigotry to say such a thing as it isn't a true statement. Don't know if I'd say it's more or less bigoted but to my mind that statement would be bigotry. You can disagree with that statement, believing it to be bigoted, and still have disdain for the feminist movement and certain members within it though.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    That's exactly the point - communists were discriminated against because of their beliefs, not because they were born communists. But honestly there is just too much stupid in this post to bother trying to explain it. If I do make the effort to refute your points you'll only reply with something that doesn't even match what I've written.
    But is it the same now, can a socialist not work in a management position? And how exactly is my post stupid? It's like me saying I don't like Nazism, do you think it's wrong to dislike Nazism too because of their beliefs? How is it wrong to dislike socialism? I'm not saying that because your a feminist you shouldn't be able to work or eat, I'm saying that because your a feminist I'm not going to like your beliefs, and beliefs are personal, but they aren't like sexuality, which are unlike beliefs, not changeable.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    That's exactly the point - communists were discriminated against because of their beliefs, not because they were born communists. But honestly there is just too much stupid in this post to bother trying to explain it. If I do make the effort to refute your points you'll only reply with something that doesn't even match what I've written.

    Edit: I do find it amusing that you won't support socialism on the basis that it doesn't support your economic interest, yet you're constantly accusing feminists of being evil because they only represent their own interests.
    Lol at the second part your a male rape(well not under law, but it's rape really) apologist. And belive that male circumcision is acceptable, why on earth would anyone on this planet like your social views?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Depends if your type of feminism is for true equality for both sexes, in which case the majority of men are also feminists, or the perverted ideology that has given true feminism a bad name, namely gender feminism, or the idea that women are better than men.

    Don't try to pretend that the latter type doesn't exist, and since it does true feminism no favours, you should hate on it just as much as everyone else.
    I'm not claiming it doesn't exist, I'm claiming it's a minority and to tarnish all feminists with the same brush is bigoted. Because I am all for gender equality, I think if a dad wants to stay at home he most certainly should be able to. Though that one is perhaps more in my interests being a man who is likely in the relationship to be the one at home more.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Prandtl)
    In answer to the main question, yeah it is bigotry to say such a thing as it isn't a true statement. Don't know if I'd say it's more or less bigoted but to my mind that statement would be bigotry. You can disagree with that statement, believing it to be bigoted, and still have disdain for the feminist movement and certain members within it though.
    Oh absolutely, I have no problem with people critiquing different areas of the feminist movement, but there are such diverse and different areas, you simply can't make a broad sweeping statement unless it is the definition of what feminism is.
    • Section Leader
    • Political Ambassador
    • Reporter Team
    Online

    19
    ReputationRep:
    It is definitely bigoted, but whether it is more bigoted is harder to say. My opinion is that it is - whilst being intolerant of homosexuality is simply being intolerant, being intolerant against feminism is being intolerant of tolerance itself.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Classical Liberal)
    It is not bigoted to hate somebody elses opinions or because of their opinions. In fact this is a pretty good reason to hate somebody or a group.

    It is to bigoted to hate somebody because of something that is out of their control.
    There's a difference here though, hating on all feminists for X, which isn't to do with feminism, seems pretty related to hating on women. It isn't the same, because many men are feminists and many women aren't feminists. But at the same time, most feminists want things to be equal, be that legislation wise, or in terms of social norms. In the UK it's mainly the latter.

    Now I can't help feeling like a feminist. And if you disagree with the reasons I'm a feminist. If you disagree with the conclusions or premises that I as a feminist have come to, that's one thing. But if you're simply judging me on the basis that I'm a feminist without even bothering to read my arguments. Simply on the basis of broad sweeping generalisations, then that is bigotry.

    I feel I should be clear to people why I made a comparison to homosexuality being discriminated against. Simply because it's also based in bigotry. In my edit I made an implication that homosexuality is discriminated against more, and that's something I stand by. But I still wanted to ask the question, is one more bigoted than another, because other people might feel more comfortable in making arguments that they are equal, or that homosexuality is discriminated against less.

    There's also a nice divide because there are some major differences in the type of discrimination that happens. But it would've been boring if the comparison in the first post had been of communists in Nazi Germany or America.

    And to be fair I think the wide range of interesting posts on the first page is in part to the weak comparison (only in the sense of there being little in common, not in the sense that the comparison can't be made) in my first post.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I told my boyfriend last night about TSR's whole feminism bashing thing and I asked him what he thought.

    He said that he doesn't believe that anyone genuinely feels threatened by the feminist movement or what they're trying to achieve, but he thinks that they're annoyed at feminists who say stupid **** like the word "mankind" is sexist and should change.

    ... what I see on TSR is different (men genuinely feel like they're discriminated against in the world). But if any men agree that the above paragraph is the real issue then let me know because that would make me feel a lot better about feminist bashing and I would even join you :dontknow:
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by espial)
    I'm not a feminist. I'm a gender egalitarian. I'm for gender equality, I don't believe in patriarchy and that because I have a penis I'm systematically better off because of it. Me and my male friends couldn't get jobs until we were mostly 18. Whereas it's much more common for women to have jobs much earlier (waitressing, cleaners, retail etc.)

    I agree with the concept of 'the gender script' and how women and men are given expectations that are purely a result of the genitals we are born with, but I'm a realist, I know that gender scripts (can) benefit both women and men (as well as be a detriment obv).

    Men are much more likely to be put in prison for the same crime, Men (regardless of parental quality) are seen as 'secondary carers' of their children and hence are much more likely to get secondary access to the child in the case of divorce, regardless of the parents wishes.

    I agree, yes, that men do in general have it better off. But, I acknowledge there are gender issues on both sides. Feminism (in general) doesn't address these.

    That is why I am not a feminist, and that is why it is not bigoted.

    edit: I do think that comparing idealogical insult to homophobia is bigoted though. I hope that comparison was a result of rushed thought, and not your actual principle.
    That's a ridiculous statement. Most feminists want things to be equal between the genders. I'm not sure if you're saying you don't believe the patriarchy exists or that you're saying you don't agree with it.

    I've not come across 'gender script' before. But it seems to be the same as gender roles, if it's different you'll need to disregard this paragraph:

    So you're not a "gender egalitarian" then. You believe that mothers should be encouraged to stay in the house and men go out to get the money. Because having a vagina means that I'll be better at child rearing and I should stay in the kitchen where I belong?

    "Men are much more likely to be put in prison for the same crime, Men (regardless of parental quality) are seen as 'secondary carers' of their children and hence are much more likely to get secondary access to the child in the case of divorce, regardless of the parents wishes."

    I presume you're implying that feminism can't care, or even be in favour of that?

    This is not what the vast majority of feminists want. In fact it's the opposite.

    "I agree, yes, that men do in general have it better off. But, I acknowledge there are gender issues on both sides. Feminism (in general) doesn't address these."
    Just a knee jerk reaction here: Radical feminism.

    How can making a comparison be bigoted? I'm not making a prejudice based statement about homosexuals. In fact I say nothing of judgement about them.

    Personally I think that both hating on all feminists by using sweeping generalisations is bigoted. I think it's worse bigotry when it's against homosexuals, because they have it a lot tougher and the bigotry is almost always if not always a lot harsher on them.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonfly07)
    I told my boyfriend last night about TSR's whole feminism bashing thing and I asked him what he thought.

    He said that he doesn't believe that anyone genuinely feels threatened by the feminist movement or what they're trying to achieve, but he thinks that they're annoyed at feminists who say stupid **** like the word "mankind" is sexist and should change.

    ... what I see on TSR is different (men genuinely feel like they're discriminated against in the world). But if any men agree that the above paragraph is the real issue then let me know because that would make me feel a lot better about feminist bashing and I would even join you :dontknow:
    It'd be ironic if it got shortened to fem bashing. As that could be short for female instead of feminist :awesome: .
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aoide)
    It isn't at all the same.

    Homosexuality is a orientation and aside from being attracted to your own sex homosexuals have nothing in common. Being gay doesn't predispose towards any viewpoint.

    Feminism is a ideology and while there are variation it has (by neccesserity of it being a single ideology) core views and aims which are true for all feminists. Being a feminist requires you to believe certain views.

    The comments aren't about a view point, they're just about feminists. They don't even address feminism or the premises or conclusions they make.


    If you have a problem with people being right in judging based on your views (whether their judgement it correct is compltely irrelevant to the points made in your OP) then you should equally be against judging Nazis and Al Queda. Regardless of whether you can or can't controll your views (which is debatable) we would be completely unable to have any kind of discussion on view points if we give them protection and validity simply because they are part of who we are (which isn't strictly true because they can change).
    ...WHAT?!?! You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what's been said and/or what bigotry is.
    Okay lets break this down. It wasn't about my views, it was simply unwarranted feminist hating. They didn't even attempt to make points against feminism and weren't engaging when they did and were replied to with counter points. I have no problem with people judging my beliefs and views. In fact it's something I encourage so long as it's done using critical reasoning. Even when it's not done with those things I don't see that as bigotry.

    On the other hand NAZIism is based on bigotry. When I'm judging NAZI's for being bigots, that is necessarily something they believe. That Jews and communists should be killed. That there is a superior race. etc.


    If they have listened to points of feminism and still believe the arguements they present are correct then i'm afraid they aren't bigoted either. Just because you don't like to hear someones views doesn't mean they have done anything wrong.
    I have no problem with them listening to the points I put forward as a feminist and disagreeing with them. This is not the case of me simply not liking someone's views. See the above text I wrote in the post.

    I happen to agree with the person you have been discussing feminism with. I'm 100% for gender equality however in out current society there are inequalities faced by both men and women (although I acknowledge more by women) and a strictly pro female approach will never result in fair treatement regardless of gender. Should feminists be given everthing they desire we wouldn't be equal, the situation would be reversed with women having more power. Soneone cannot claim to be for equality while only having the interests of one party at heart.
    It is a core tenant for the vast majority of feminists that the genders should be equal. Feminism isn't just about women.
 
 
 
Poll
Which pet is the best?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.