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Saintsin
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#1
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I was doing some historical research and wondered why some symbols are liked so much and others hated. For example let’s take 3 symbols,

Swastika, Start and bars, Hammer and Sickle. What I don’t really get is that the Swastika is hated so much; for starters it was created 3000 years before the Nazi's got hold of it and the true meaning of it means Good Luck or has positive religious meaning. The bars and stripes was created by the confederate army which wanted to keep slavery and hated afro-American people and the Hammer and sickle was the worst of the lot with a death toll much higher than the latter 2 put together, with the ideology of Stalin, the communist onslaught and lack of human rights. Yet people love wearing 2 of the symbols I mentioned as fashion statements.
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pal_sch
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The Stars and Bars are still used in state flags in some sothern states and so can't be truly hated. The hammer and sickle are used in popular culture to represent evil and the enemy, and so appear attractive to those who want to rebel, especialy in the post cold war world. It has become almost a badge showing that you are not happy with the current world.

The swastica used by the Nazis was not the orriginal, it is a perversion adopted by the Nazis for its strength and ability to convey a strong image. These factors have combined to halp it stick in cultual memory as a hated symbol of genocide.
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rednirt
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(Original post by pal_sch)

The swastica used by the Nazis was not the orriginal, it is a perversion adopted by the Nazis for its strength and ability to convey a strong image. These factors have combined to halp it stick in cultual memory as a hated symbol of genocide.
I agree, it is essentially a symbol of good luck which had unintentionally ben corrupted by assocation. In Romania it used to be a symbol of protection and was drawn on windows to ward off bad spirits. If one looks at it without knwoing of any other connotatins it is indeed quite a nice geometric pattern.
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Howard
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(Original post by Saintsin)
I was doing some historical research and wondered why some symbols are liked so much and others hated. For example let’s take 3 symbols,

Swastika, Start and bars, Hammer and Sickle. What I don’t really get is that the Swastika is hated so much; for starters it was created 3000 years before the Nazi's got hold of it and the true meaning of it means Good Luck or has positive religious meaning. The bars and stripes was created by the confederate army which wanted to keep slavery and hated afro-American people and the Hammer and sickle was the worst of the lot with a death toll much higher than the latter 2 put together, with the ideology of Stalin, the communist onslaught and lack of human rights. Yet people love wearing 2 of the symbols I mentioned as fashion statements.

Unless it is a new fad in the UK I don't think the stars and bars is worn as a fashion statement.

It's certainly not "fashion" to wear it in America. Many people in the south for example take the stars and bars very seriously and identify with it as a symbol of a shared southern heritage.

Such is the strength of feeling over this I personally wouldn't advise a non-southerner wearing a stars and bars motiff of any sort. Many people would be upset that a non-southerner is adorning him/herself with an emblem that that person does not identify with..............and you might get a real pounding in some places!
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Saintsin
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Not too sure, but I think the Swastika is widely used in Tibetan monasteries.
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Saintsin
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(Original post by Howard)
Unless it is a new fad in the UK I don't think the stars and bars is worn as a fashion statement.

It's certainly not "fashion" to wear it in America. Many people in the south for example take the stars and bars very seriously and identify with it as a symbol of a shared southern heritage.

Such is the strength of feeling over this I personally wouldn't advise a non-southerner wearing a stars and bars motiff of any sort. Many people would be upset that a non-southerner is adorning him/herself with an emblem that that person does not identify with..............and you might get a real pounding in some places!
What im getting at is that you can freely buy badges of the Stars and bars or Hammer and Sickle, place it on your clothing and no one will say a word. But if you place a Swastika for its true pre-nazi meaning you will be branded a total Nazi and frowned upon.
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Howard
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(Original post by Saintsin)
What im getting at is that you can freely buy badges of the Stars and bars or Hammer and Sickle, place it on your clothing and no one will say a word. But if you place a Swastika for its true pre-nazi meaning you will be branded a total Nazi and frowned upon.
I sort of see your point. In my radical student days (amazingly I was quite a lefty!) I used to wear a hammer and sickle lapel pin and it was very seldom remarked upon.

I actually think it comes down to historical awareness though. A person would have to have lived in total isolation all his life not to know that nazism as symbolized by the swastika was responsible for the holocaust. However, a lot fewer people are aware of Stalin's purges and the millions sent to the gulags.

I guess nazism has had worse "PR" than communism!
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Howard
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(Original post by Howard)
I guess nazism has had worse "PR" than communism!

Which of course it has. Go around any mid sized city in England on a Saturday morning and next to the irritating Peruvian nose flute players you're quite likely to find a stand organized by Militant, Socialist Worker, CPB etc.

They hand out their leaflets and nobody bats an eyelid. Of course if the BNP or another extreme rightist organization set up stall the reaction would be different.

Communism is still seen by many as "cute and cuddly" Nazism never is.
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waiting2smile
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(Original post by Howard)

I guess nazism has had worse "PR" than communism!
Which makes sense since communism wasn't threatening.
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waiting2smile
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(Original post by waiting2smile)
Which makes sense since communism wasn't threatening.
:confused: Actually I take that back. Both being works of evil, with perhaps Nazism being the most unjustifiable.
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Howard
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(Original post by waiting2smile)
:confused: Actually I take that back. Both being works of evil, with perhaps Nazism being the most unjustifiable.
Well, both pretty bad actually. Stalin sent 20 million of his own people to their deaths in the gulags for political crimes, being homosexual, being a jew, or gypsy etc. Pretty much indistinguisable from nazism I'd say.
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chica bonita
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(Original post by Howard)
Well, both pretty bad actually. Stalin sent 20 million of his own people to their deaths in the gulags for political crimes, being homosexual, being a jew, or gypsy etc. Pretty much indistinguisable from nazism I'd say.
the swasticka is actually a symbol used in the hindu religion meaning peace on earth
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Delight
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(Original post by chica bonita)
the swasticka is actually a symbol used in the hindu religion meaning peace on earth
Is it true that it means invincible in some cultures (and is this why Hitler used it)?
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Howard
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(Original post by chica bonita)
the swasticka is actually a symbol used in the hindu religion meaning peace on earth
Yes, I know that. Thankyou.
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chica bonita
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(Original post by Howard)
Yes, I know that. Thankyou.
u being sarcastic mate
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waiting2smile
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(Original post by Howard)
Well, both pretty bad actually. Stalin sent 20 million of his own people to their deaths in the gulags for political crimes, being homosexual, being a jew, or gypsy etc. Pretty much indistinguisable from nazism I'd say.
looking at both ideologies, i'd say Nazism was by far the worst.
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Howard
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(Original post by chica bonita)
u being sarcastic mate
Yes (and I'm not your "mate")
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Howard
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(Original post by waiting2smile)
looking at both ideologies, i'd say Nazism was by far the worst.
How d'you arrive at that conclusion? Communism has killed a lot more people than nazism hasn't it?
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llama boy
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(Original post by Howard)
How d'you arrive at that conclusion? Communism has killed a lot more people than nazism hasn't it?
Well, those purporting to implement it certainly killed a fair few.

Though I think you'd struggle to find anything near genocidal intent in the writings of Marx etc - which surely must be taken as the "ideology", no? (lots of talk of communes, though), whereas the same is not true for Nazism.

Much as I despise Stalinism, I do find the "Communism killed x million" line amusing in its misleadingness. Should we attribute every death in the capitalist world through malnutrition, lack of drugs, etc, to "Capitalism killed x million"? The figure would be similarly large and misleading.

It's specious in the extreme and very silly.
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waiting2smile
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(Original post by Howard)
How d'you arrive at that conclusion? Communism has killed a lot more people than nazism hasn't it?
Howard you're twisting the argument as usual, i'm not concentrating on how many people died under mindless, paranoid, illogical leaders but the doctrine or belief that forms the basis of those two systems. Communism - is a brilliant system that would work in an ideal world - if it's not abused, on the other hand Nazism/Fascism is something totally different!
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