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    (Original post by llama boy)
    Well, those purporting to implement it certainly killed a fair few.

    Though I think you'd struggle to find anything near genocidal intent in the writings of Marx etc - which surely must be taken as the "ideology", no? (lots of talk of communes, though), whereas the same is not true for Nazism.

    Much as I despise Stalinism, I do find the "Communism killed x million" line amusing in its misleadingness. Should we attribute every death in the capitalist world through malnutrition, lack of drugs, etc, to "Capitalism killed x million"? The figure would be similarly large and misleading.

    It's specious in the extreme and very silly.
    What the **** has the "writings of Marx" got to do with it? Real world communism (not the theory Marx wrote about) killed millions.

    Stalin, hated jews, gipsies, gays, liberals etc as much as Hitler.

    What the **** are you talking about? You can't even begin to compare death by malnutrician in capitalist countries with intentional starvation in gulags.

    You become more of a crank every time you voice an opinion.
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    The crimes of Stalin do not represent the 'norm' when it comes to Communist leaders, they respresent one of the extreme cases where Communism went extremely wrong, with disasterous results for the country involved...

    If you claim that what Stalin did represents what Communism is like as a whole then youre every bit as foolish as your argument...

    Having said that, Communism by no means comes out smelling of roses, many Communist rulers of many different countries have been responsible for terrible acts, for example Pol Pot (i believe he was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Cambodian Communist party, but i may be be wrong...) killed 40% of the population of Cambodia during his time in power, a higher percentage even than Stalin, although Cambodia is a smaller country so it amounted to fewer deaths in terms of numbers...

    I can respect the ideals of Communism, but when it comes to translating those ideals into the political sphere, it all seems to go wrong, usually with terrible consequences...
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    (Original post by Funky Phantom)
    The crimes of Stalin do not represent the 'norm' when it comes to Communist leaders, they respresent one of the extreme cases where Communism went extremely wrong, with disasterous results for the country involved...

    If you claim that what Stalin did represents what Communism is like as a whole then youre every bit as foolish as your argument...

    Having said that, Communism by no means comes out smelling of roses, many Communist rulers of many different countries have been responsible for terrible acts, for example Pol Pot (i believe he was the leader of the Khmer Rouge, the Cambodian Communist party, but i may be be wrong...) killed 40% of the population of Cambodia during his time in power, a higher percentage even than Stalin, although Cambodia is a smaller country so it amounted to fewer deaths in terms of numbers...

    I can respect the ideals of Communism, but when it comes to translating those ideals into the political sphere, it all seems to go wrong, usually with terrible consequences...
    The absolute excess of Stalin I'll acknowledge. But frankly I'm hard pressed to think of a single communist country that hasn't been under the extremely oppressive rule of a cruel dictators.

    North Korea. Vietnam. Cambodia. China. Albania. East Germany. The list goes on......all communist (or ex communist)

    While Stalin might be an extreme example none of the these countries leaders were what you'd exactly call "nice" were they?

    The ideals of communism are crap as well.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    What the **** has the "writings of Marx" got to do with it? Real world communism (not the theory Marx wrote about) killed millions.
    Because the basis of this discussion was which "ideology" had killed more. Unless you can show Stalin was true to the ideology, rather than an abomination from it, you don't prove anything about "communism".

    Stalin, hated jews, gipsies, gays, liberals etc as much as Hitler.
    He did indeed, although communism as an ideology doesn't/didn't. All that proves is that Stalin was in many respects a long way from communist ideology.

    What the **** are you talking about? You can't even begin to compare death by malnutrition in capitalist countries with intentional starvation in gulags.
    I'm not entirely sure why you think that is, but that wasn't the main thrust of my point anyway. When people cite the "communism killed..." line, they throw in all the deaths, whatever from, from all countries that could be construed as communist. That includes a fair few malnutrition deaths exactly like in capitalist countries. It also means the overall figures are frighteningly meaningless.

    You become more of a crank every time you voice an opinion.
    Have you been drinking?
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    (Original post by Howard)

    The ideals of communism are crap as well.
    How so?

    (I believe you're only saying that because you're losing the argument Howard since you fail to justify what you've said)
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    There is no reason why the symbols themselves should be loved or hated. The lines used and the way they are constructed means nothing on its own. The reason they are loved or hated is because they are used to represent something. This representation changes throughout history.

    The swastika used to be adored because it represented peace, and peace is generally taken to be a good thing. It is now hated because it has evil connotations. This is nothing to do with the lines themselves, but with the fact that the Nazi party used it to symbolise itself.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    While Stalin might be an extreme example none of the these countries leaders were what you'd exactly call "nice" were they?
    Indeed, admittedly the best of the bunch when it comes to Communism still pretty much amounts to a whose who of butchers, but then it is an extreme ideology? Could you expect any different? Pretty much all extreme right wing leaders of countries have been responsible for horrific acts too, extreme parties taking power tends to have extreme consequences, this is simply reality...

    (Original post by Howard)
    The ideals of communism are crap as well.
    I think as ideals they werent all that bad, if overly naive and idealistic...
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    (Original post by llama boy)
    Because the basis of this discussion was which "ideology" had killed more. Unless you can show Stalin was true to the ideology, rather than an abomination from it, you don't prove anything about "communism".

    Erm....I don't think the word "ideology" was used actually. It was just a matter of which is worse, nazism or communism. Period. So stop playing word games and trying to me a smart ass.

    Have you been drinking?
    Yes, but it's obviously not working. Can I have a blast on your crack pipe? Maybe that way we'll find some common ground.
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    (Original post by Saintsin)
    I was doing some historical research and wondered why some symbols are liked so much and others hated. For example let’s take 3 symbols,

    Swastika, Start and bars, Hammer and Sickle. What I don’t really get is that the Swastika is hated so much; for starters it was created 3000 years before the Nazi's got hold of it and the true meaning of it means Good Luck or has positive religious meaning. The bars and stripes was created by the confederate army which wanted to keep slavery and hated afro-American people and the Hammer and sickle was the worst of the lot with a death toll much higher than the latter 2 put together, with the ideology of Stalin, the communist onslaught and lack of human rights. Yet people love wearing 2 of the symbols I mentioned as fashion statements.
    The swastike is hated because everyone immediatly thinks nazis
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    (Original post by waiting2smile)
    How so?

    (I believe you're only saying that because you're losing the argument Howard since you fail to justify what you've said)
    Has the argument that I've lost been so convincingly put by the opposition that you feel induced to join the communist party and go and live in Cuba? No. I didn't think so.

    The ideals of communism are crap because they don't work in practice and in my opinion there's no such thing as a brilliant idea that doesn't work.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Has the argument that I've lost been so convincingly put by the opposition that you feel induced to join the communist party and go and live in Cuba? No. I didn't think so.
    No, but that would've been rather a strange consequence, given that isn't what the "opposition" were arguing.
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    (Original post by llama boy)
    No, but that would've been rather a strange consequence, given that isn't what the "opposition" were arguing.
    I thought the opposition was arguing that "communism's not that bad really"
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    To be Frank, I'd say that Stalin, hitler and all other communist group leaders have one thing in common. They lack feeling for everyone else. thus they are labelled psychotic. They probably never truly understood that this is life and it cant be theirs.

    I guess I kinda see the downfall of society and a division between rich and poor, well the way the world population is increasing these days. Maybe Stalin shoulda enforced a one baby only rule??

    heh
    ps Funky Phantom has a really good opinion
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    (Original post by Tidus24kmc)
    ps Funky Phantom has a really good opinion
    Always nice to meet a fan...

    ...That is provided that wasnt sarcasm :/

    (Original post by Howard)
    The ideals of communism are crap because they don't work in practice and in my opinion there's no such thing as a brilliant idea that doesn't work.
    What about the French national football side at the 2002 World Cup, on paper it was probably the best side there (debatebly), but in practice... well... :rolleyes:

    Seriously though, i believe that the reason that Communism could never work is due the fact that humans are inherantly corruptable by their very nature, some more than others and there will always be those who yearn for power, therefore society can never be entirely equal.

    Although perhaps the Communists knew this all along and Communism was never supposed to get past the stage at which power rests with a dictator who controls the state utterly, it was simply thought up in order to justify Communist governments subjugating their peoples in the supposed interests of eventually creating a 'perfect' state where everyone is equal...

    Perhaps poor execution of the idea is to blame here, or then again maybe youre right and im wasting my time here, im willing to accept that possibility, i have no great love for ol' Joe Stalin, i just think some of the goals set out by Communism were admirable... if fatally flawed...

    Either way, ive consumed too many caffeine products tonight
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    (Original post by Tidus24kmc)
    thus they are labelled psychotic.
    Controversial, controversial, even though some historians are trying to make a case for this. Is there any evidence (and by this I mean medical evidence, for this is what the term 'psychotic' implies)? Interesting question...
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Has the argument that I've lost been so convincingly put by the opposition that you feel induced to join the communist party and go and live in Cuba? No. I didn't think so.

    The ideals of communism are crap because they don't work in practice and in my opinion there's no such thing as a brilliant idea that doesn't work.
    (wryly) you've been drinking Howard, you're usually good at arguing - today however...
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    (Original post by waiting2smile)
    (wryly) you've been drinking Howard, you're usually good at arguing - today however...
    Must be having an off day <shrugs>
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    socialism is also pretty good- from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs
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    (Original post by Saintsin)
    I was doing some historical research and wondered why some symbols are liked so much and others hated. For example let’s take 3 symbols,

    Swastika, Start and bars, Hammer and Sickle. What I don’t really get is that the Swastika is hated so much; for starters it was created 3000 years before the Nazi's got hold of it and the true meaning of it means Good Luck or has positive religious meaning. The bars and stripes was created by the confederate army which wanted to keep slavery and hated afro-American people and the Hammer and sickle was the worst of the lot with a death toll much higher than the latter 2 put together, with the ideology of Stalin, the communist onslaught and lack of human rights. Yet people love wearing 2 of the symbols I mentioned as fashion statements.

    The Swastika is assoiated with evil because everbody knows it as the flag of the Nazis, no-matter what it orginally meant - as with the others. When I was younger and learning about Nazi Germany I couldn't understand how the Germans could have thought it wasn't evil. Obviously I understand now. But it is evil because it is the sign of Hitler. People used to have the Swastika outside their house if they agreed with Hitler. Even though it is a harmless flag; it means something. Even today.
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    Being a Hindu (though now more of an atheist ) I must state the reason Hitler used the Swastika. Hitler believed he was an Aryan, the race of the Indian peoples, and the Swastika was one of many Hindu symbols. He adopted that as his badge as a sign of his "Aryan" origin.

    The swastika is originally the symbol of "Shakti", i.e the sacred feminine power. It is still used as a Hindu symbol.

    The hammer and sickle represents the union of agriculture with industry, (it is one of communism's ideals) hence it is not bad as a symbol.
 
 
 
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