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Cameron wants to make apprenticeships the "new norm" for non Uni goers... Watch

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    Something like this is interesting. I'm not sure if it is actually classed as an apprenticeship though.

    http://www.ey.com/UK/en/Careers/Stud...aver-programme

    'You don’t have to go to university to get ahead. As an EY School Leaver you’ll step straight into the workplace, develop valuable technical skills with structured training, and gain a sought-after professional qualification - without university fees and student debt.'

    My friend from school went onto a similar scheme and is doing really well now. He earns pretty good money and is completing his professional qualifications.
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    So, have we given up on our education system preparing people for work? Rather than it being the norm to get a job straight away if you don't go to uni, it'll be the norm to have to do some underpaid work for a year or more.
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    (Original post by SpottedZebra)
    They're fair points you've made there I think....but with regard to the refusing to have a debt being 'dumb', I'd disagree with that, I think that's to do with morals people have been brought up with. Everyone is brought up differently, and as long as they take that choice and still contribute to society by doing something like an apprenticeship (i.e. not living off benefits) that's perfectly fine by me University just doesn't suit some people and that can be for many different reasons
    Please note the issue I have is with people blanketly refusing to have debt, not generally trying to avoid it which is probably a good idea! The idea that someone simply won't even consider an option because it results in debt is, in my opinion, unforgiveably stupid. A smart person is always willing to weigh up the options (imo)!
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    (Original post by M1011)
    Please note the issue I have is with people blanketly refusing to have debt, not generally trying to avoid it which is probably a good idea! The idea that someone simply won't even consider an option because it results in debt is, in my opinion, unforgiveably stupid. A smart person is always willing to weigh up the options (imo)!
    I see what you're saying, and I agree that people should weigh up the options properly (i.e. considering ALL the advantages and ALL the disadvantages) before making a decision
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    (Original post by SpottedZebra)
    A degree isn't accessible to everyone, for a number of reasons. For people that this applies to, apprenticeships can be an invaluable way of learning a trade while earning a small amount of money. On completion of a *good* apprenticeship, there can be great career prospects. They are just more suited to people with practical rather than academic people, and people that aren't afraid of a bit of hard work to move themselves up the career ladder.

    And apprenticeships are worth it for employers, they are incentivised by the government for employers as they will help with training costs, the apprentices wages and other aspects of the business. In the eyes of the employer, they are making an investment in a person who will become a good worker in the future and in the meantime, can be very helpful in carrying out less complex tasks. If they weren't worth it for employers, employers wouldn't offer them.
    The truth is that many employers dont. Why waste money on training someone when they can employ someone who already has the necessary skills?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    The truth is that many employers dont. Why waste money on training someone when they can employ someone who already has the necessary skills?
    Many employers don't, but many employers also do. But I agree with the general point that for Cameron make apprenticeships the 'norm' like he is proposing, some changes will need to be made to make apprenticeships more appealing for both employers and young people.

    At the moment I reckon there's too much of a gap between good apprenticeships offering good qualifications within a good company and apprenticeships that are really just cheap labour the company, with them having little intention of providing good training. That needs to be changed in order for apprenticeships to become a more popular route. I think they would also need to broaden the different types of career paths that offer apprenticeships.
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    Many young people are not emotionally prepared for apprenticeship. The trade-off is that in return for getting paid not very much and doing a lot of donkey work, your employer spends a lot of effort teaching you something (practically) that you would otherwise wouldn't be able to learn. Typically, it's a few years of bending pipes, sweeping up and sawing through stuff - all the while getting paid the bottom NMW rate.

    And there are a lot of people that just won't have it. They see their friends earning more and won't accept something else, or a job involving very menial tasks.

    I know of a company that advertised two electronics apprenticeships in the last few years. Both went unfilled, with candidates turning the places down to work at a shoe shop and a sports shop respectively; along with several no-shows for interview.
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    (Original post by SpottedZebra)
    Many employers don't, but many employers also do. But I agree with the general point that for Cameron make apprenticeships the 'norm' like he is proposing, some changes will need to be made to make apprenticeships more appealing for both employers and young people.
    At the moment I reckon there's too much of a gap between good apprenticeships offering good qualifications within a good company and apprenticeships that are really just cheap labour the company, with them having little intention of providing good training. That needs to be changed in order for apprenticeships to become a more popular route. I think they would also need to broaden the different types of career paths that offer apprenticeships.
    so long as apprentices keep getting paid only 2 quid an hour i dont think they're going to attract much interest. apart from the people who just don't have a choice.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Many young people are not emotionally prepared for apprenticeship. The trade-off is that in return for getting paid not very much and doing a lot of donkey work, your employer spends a lot of effort teaching you something (practically) that you would otherwise wouldn't be able to learn. Typically, it's a few years of bending pipes, sweeping up and sawing through stuff - all the while getting paid the bottom NMW rate.

    And there are a lot of people that just won't have it. They see their friends earning more and won't accept something else, or a job involving very menial tasks.

    I know of a company that advertised two electronics apprenticeships in the last few years. Both went unfilled, with candidates turning the places down to work at a shoe shop and a sports shop respectively; along with several no-shows for interview.
    I'm not surprised, I'd also find it degrading to work for peanuts whilst all my friends are getting along in life. It's not even enough to live on, how are you supposed to pay for everything on that salary?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    I'm not surprised, I'd also find it degrading to work for peanuts whilst all my friends are getting along in life. It's not even enough to live on, how are you supposed to pay for everything on that salary?
    That's part of the apprenticeship trade-off. You are assumed to be being supported by family.

    Why is it degrading? At university you pay them to learn something. At apprenticeship, college fees are covered and you get paid (albeit not much.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    This seems to resurface regularly now under all governments - the 'need for more apprenticeships' has been talked about for over a decade. I suspect they are just paying it lip service - in the final analysis, it depends on companies to offer them. In the years before the Thatcher government, there were substantial tax breaks for companies running them and support for local technical colleges in each town that worked with the local businesses to provide them. This was all ended during the Thatcher administration and has not been replaced since then to anything like the same extent.

    The German economy is driven by this system. It works and it works well.

    There was a big push for it in the 70s along German lines but the unions stomped on it.

    It would also need but in from all parties. Basically the German system results in no work for anybody without an apprenticeship. That means minimal benefits as well
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    (Original post by Clip)
    That's part of the apprenticeship trade-off. You are assumed to be being supported by family.

    Why is it degrading? At university you pay them to learn something. At apprenticeship, college fees are covered and you get paid (albeit not much.

    An apprenticeship is something to be proud of. We need to introduce the German model though. So you wouldn't be on peanuts whilst your friends on are on me more. Your friends won't be earning anything unless they're apprenticed.

    even the guys sweeping the floor at the BMW factory in Munich have all successfully completed an apprenticeship.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    so long as apprentices keep getting paid only 2 quid an hour i dont think they're going to attract much interest. apart from the people who just don't have a choice.

    What about people investing in their own future for a change?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    The German economy is driven by this system. It works and it works well.

    There was a big push for it in the 70s along German lines but the unions stomped on it.

    It would also need but in from all parties. Basically the German system results in no work for anybody without an apprenticeship. That means minimal benefits as well
    Like you said - needs agreement from everyone. We're not big on regulation of trades here, and the only people that seem keen on factory work protectionism are factory workers - everyone else (unionised or not) gets the hump when people are paid £40k in a closed shop for operating a widget machine for your whole life.

    I can see the value in the German system, but I fear it would mean decades of pain here. It's too late.
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    (Original post by TheHistoryStudent)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21734560

    What do we think?

    Personally I think it's a good idea, for even if people don't find work with a company at the end of it, they could still use the skills they've acquired from doing the apprenticeship to set up their own business or something, might actually do some good!
    Definitely a good idea.

    Not everyone is made for, or wants to go to, uni and this gives those people an alternative so they won't be pushed into something that they don't want to do.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    Like you said - needs agreement from everyone. We're not big on regulation of trades here, and the only people that seem keen on factory work protectionism are factory workers - everyone else (unionised or not) gets the hump when people are paid £40k in a closed shop for operating a widget machine for your whole life.

    I can see the value in the German system, but I fear it would mean decades of pain here. It's too late.

    It would take some time. It took Germany about thirty years to industrialise
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Werkbund

    but unless the world is going to end over the next twenty years then I think we should make a start.
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    Without apprenticeships, especially in engineering/ technical areas etc, we are doomed.

    While graduate engineers are required and welcomed, how many of them can actually work a lathe, create components etc. Design them , yes, draw them, possibly, but actually make the item, unlikely.

    Architects may be able to design buildings but they do not actually have the skills to physically build them, they can calculate forces, stresses etc and spec methods/ components, but they need someone who actually has the skill and experience to build their designs.

    The catch is that as the world of technology advances the technical employees need both practical skills and knowledge- maths/physics etc. Whilst some school leavers who are not intent on University have the academic ability to undertake engineering apprenticeships, large numbers do not, their maths skills are weak.

    Therefore, if apprenticeships are to flourish, outwith the hospitality/service industries, there needs to be changes in the school system to accomodate the mix of required skills.

    One possibility is to cluster schools, in effect technical colleges attached/ linked/ part of the secondaries where pupils can continue , post say 14, to cover core subjects, and take some classes within the original school, but they can also opt to spend part of their week at technical schools. I suspect that pupils who maybe have an interest in say car mechanics might find maths more interesting if they could use it to measure say gas head flow rates, BHP yield curves etc. Seeing a practical demonstration of the application of maths may well, for a lot of pupils, concentrate their willingness to learn- move maths from the abstract to the applied.

    The idea needs thought, the past resonance of the old secondary modern/grammar divide needs to be addressed, maybe pupils take both academic and technical subjects- they in effect attend both schools.

    The UK has a poor regard for trades whilst our neighbours in Europe treat technically qualified individuals with far more respect, if we do not change then at some point in the future we will be the advance rocket of phone hygienists etc, fired of in advance of the technicians to make our new planet comfortable for their later arrival- only they never follow us there. (Douglas Adams- Restaurant at the end of the Universe)
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    What about people investing in their own future for a change?
    some people cant afford to work for 2 quid an hour.
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    (Original post by Clip)
    That's part of the apprenticeship trade-off. You are assumed to be being supported by family.

    Why is it degrading? At university you pay them to learn something. At apprenticeship, college fees are covered and you get paid (albeit not much.
    why is that assumed though? why shouldn't a person without family support be able to take up an apprenticeship?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    some people cant afford to work for 2 quid an hour.

    So we'll bring the whole country down to the same level for everybody? You go to school and don't earn £2 an hour.


    How many people on here had to leave school at 16 and start work because they can't afford to live? Are we living in Victorian times? I think not.
 
 
 
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