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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    that intoxication vitiates consent, that a rape victim has to physically resist and/or the act be accompanied by violence to qualify.
    Surely that would obviously be fictional. If they drink until they are unconscious then it's still rape
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Okay I think theres been some studd I didn't explain properly. I didn't go back with the guys like that - as in 'go back' from a night out with. My friend is seeing his cousin who was staying with the guy. I didn't want to leave her on her own and thought that getting a taxi home would be less safe at the time. I then went to bed alone. I thought he was someone I could trust not to do anything I guess.

    Secondly, to the person who split my description in two. I was falling asleep when he was getting off next to me kind of facing away from him in bed while he was lying on the other side. I knew what he was doing because of the noise rather than because I was watching or anything. And then it all happened so fast because then I was drowsy and he took me by suprise. I guess I didn't explain that.

    Thirdly, yes I am an emotional mess. I'm sorry.

    Anyway all of these points are irrelevant. I know I've messed up and - I think we've all established that you think I am some kind of slut. I just wanted some advice on how to tell him to hurt him less - PLEASE? You can insult me all you want after - I just want to know how to tell him in the best possible way? Enough guys have commented that they should be able to tell me how they would want to be told? Or girls how you would tell?
    'Hey, after our fight I got really drunk and I went to sleep it off in that guys bed. He got into bed and forcefully penetrated my mouth, Id told him straight I didnt want anything to happen but he still did it, it was horrible and I never wanted anything to happen with him. Im sorry that I trusted such a vile person and I would never cheat on you. I feel so upset and disgusted about what happened'
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    (Original post by harrismahmood)
    Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:
    A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;
    Therefore women cannot rape men. So no, I don't see the failure in my logic, do you?
    Ah, but you didn't say that originally, did you? You said "did you know by law a man cannot be raped" and I corrected you.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Did the OP say it was into her mouth? As I understood I thought she said he ejaculated into her mouth, my mistake. As it is though, I'd stick my by point by reason of colloquial definition of rape, but thatnk you for the clarification.
    She said "he was on top of me and in my mouth for about five seconds". In respect of colloquial definitions, I'd always understood that sticking your penis in any orifice of an unconsenting partner is rape in the colloquial as well as legal sense? Or by colloquial, do you mean heterosexual missionary?

    And you don't suppose there might have been a sofa or chair in the house? Even the floor would be prefferable to me than staying in a bed with someone masturbating over me when I don't want them to and I have a partner.
    Certainly that would have been preferable in the clear light of day, and that's probably what I would have done if I'd put myself into that situation. But in light of her intoxication, her youth, the alienness of the situation and the prior decisions, that would seem less in keeping with the account than what she's actually said has happened.

    Her actions and responses are not atypical for someone who is in this situation.

    There are so many points where this escalation could have and should have been avoided, infact the more I think over it, the more I feel that the OP was in the wrong for allowing it to get to that stage. Let me be clear, I am in no way saying she invited the actual assault, but the whole circumstance should never have been allowed to happen by her.
    The law is there to protect not just those who are confident, assertive and articulate, but those who are young, vulnerable, timid, unsure of how to extricate themselves from these situations. There are many reasons why someone wouldn't move instinctively; when I was around 20 (about half a decade ago, and on the other side of the world) I picked up a guy and took him home. We had sex and came went to sleep. I woke up at about 3am and he was jerking off; admittedly I had a great body when I was 20, and I don't think he'd actually had sex with a guy before so I reckon he was a bit... overstimulated, but it was still novel, if disconcerting. I just went back to sleep.

    I can imagine that would be someone's instinct even more strongly if they're in someone else's bed, in the middle of the night, (presumably) far from home. Certainly the end of the line of many bad judgement calls, but I see it as entirely independent of the sexual assault.

    As you say, perhaps for you it's different, you have a different view on people and relationships. If you honestly say you would believe your partner wholly after hearing the account, then fair play to you. I am however, of a different opinion.
    I trust that my partner would be unlikely to get into a situation like this, but certainly I'd give him the absolute benefit of the doubt. It makes me quite sad to think about how he'd feel if he was telling the truth and I doubted him.

    Brass tacks; patterns are far better basis to judge than one-off incidents.
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    (Original post by MattFletcher)
    Surely that would obviously be fictional. If they drink until they are unconscious then it's still rape
    How fictional? Are you replying to my quote about plying the victim with an intoxicating substance without their consent, or the ratio decidendi from R v Bree?

    It's certainly not fictional that people can legitimately consent to sex while drunk, and it's certainly not fictional that sometimes some people drink so much that they become unconscious.

    The distinction turns not on "intoxication" but on capacity to make judgements; if you can still make a judgement, even if it is impaired, you can consent. If you are unable to make a judgement (unconscious / uncommunicative / passed-out), you are incapable.
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    (Original post by harrismahmood)
    Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

    A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

    Therefore women cannot rape men. So no, I don't see the failure in my logic, do you?
    Yes. Men can rape men. Pretty easy and simple answer; your logic failed you.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    She said "he was on top of me and in my mouth for about five seconds". In respect of colloquial definitions, I'd always understood that sticking your penis in any orifice of an unconsenting partner is rape in the colloquial as well as legal sense? Or by colloquial, do you mean heterosexual missionary?



    Certainly that would have been preferable in the clear light of day, and that's probably what I would have done if I'd put myself into that situation. But in light of her intoxication, her youth, the alienness of the situation and the prior decisions, that would seem less in keeping with the account than what she's actually said has happened.

    Her actions and responses are not atypical for someone who is in this situation.

    You're assuming I mean the man in the bed with the OP? I am reffering to the BF, who obviously did not witness the incident. And here I think is where law differs from human reaction.



    The law is there to protect not just those who are confident, assertive and articulate, but those who are young, vulnerable, timid, unsure of how to extricate themselves from these situations. There are many reasons why someone wouldn't move instinctively; when I was around 20 (about half a decade ago, and on the other side of the world) I picked up a guy and took him home. We had sex and came went to sleep. I woke up at about 3am and he was jerking off; admittedly I had a great body when I was 20, and I don't think he'd actually had sex with a guy before, but it was a little bit... disconcerting. I just went back to sleep.

    I can imagine that would be someone's instinct even more strongly if they're in someone else's bed, in the middle of the night, (presumably) far from home. Certainly the end of the line of many bad judgement calls, but I see it as entirely independent of the sexual assault.



    I trust that my partner would be unlikely to get into a situation like this, but certainly I'd give him the absolute benefit of the doubt. It makes me quite sad to think about how he'd feel if he was telling the truth and I doubted him.

    Brass tacks; patterns are far better basis to judge than one-off incidents.
    By colloquial, I would mean full penetration of the anus or vagina, perhaps the mouth, but with full on thrusting etc. I mean, I have been in situations where jokes have been played which by the law may be considered rape under S1, but using a colloquial judgement, that is obviously not the case. Here, this is less rape and a lot closer to sexual assault in my opinion, though I know that obviously does not adhere to the letter of the law.

    I have to disagree here. I know plenty of people who have been drunk and managed to remove themselves from sexual situations, ones clearly drunker and newer to sexual situations than the OP seems to be.

    Here I was not talking about the letter of the law, but of human reaction. I understand legally she did nothing wrong, but that's not the issue. And would you have stayed there had that man slipped into your bed univited, you had already rebuffed him and you had a partner? I understand you are not directly equating the situations, but I don't feel your example is really that relevant, as the dynamic there is clearly very different.

    I guess that's the crux of it. So many bad decisions had been made up to that point, that's where the difficulty of judgement comes in, but I commend the trust you have in your partner.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Last weekend me and my boyfriend of 3 months, although weve been dating nearly a year, had a huge fight. Its my first serious relationship and our first fight and i guess i overreacted. Either way i dealt with it in the most immature way possible by going out and getting ridiculously drunk. My female friend and i ended up going back with two guys we know. One of these i have previously given head to but that was a long time before i was with my boyfriend. However we have hung out alone since many times and nothing has ever happened. He has occasionally hit on me but it always seemed jokey so i assumed it was a one off for both of us. My boyfriend knows about this.

    However this night i was drunk angry and upset and asked if i could go sleep it off in his bed. I have slept in his bed, and drunk, before which again my boyfriend kniws about. He wasnt happy but he always appreciated the fact i didnt want to leave my friend on her own with two men. Again nothing has ever happened.

    This time at some point he came and woke me up getting into bed. He started trying it on with me. He tried to have sex i said no. He kissed me and i pushed him off. I told hin i didnt want him to make me a cheat. He got weird and pissed off i didnt want to do anything but then apologised. I made the biggest mistake and got back into bed. He started gettinf himself off next to me and then, it all happened quite quickly, he was on top of me and in my mouth for about 5 seconds before he finished in me. I did nothig to stop.it. My memory is blurry because of tiredness/drunken but i cant honestly say i did anything to stop him. I dont know why. Ive been drunk before. Ive been angry before.i know neither are an excuse.

    I have no feelings for this man. I never want to see him again and i will never speak to hin again. I hate myself for hurting my boyfriend. Hes the most amazing person i have ever met and i love him so much. I have never done anything like this before and i never wi again. My boyfriend was also my first. I have always told him the truth because i hate lying. Sone people say that it is best to not tell him and hurt his feelinngs over a one time thing like this and that he would not want to know. Is that really true? Is telling him selfish just to make my guilt go away because i hate lying? Im so confusef. I never thought i could be a cheat and i have no idea how to deal with the guilt because ive never really done anything 'bad' before? How do i tell him if that still is the right thing to do? Woukd he ever be able to care about me again?
    Wow...you lasted how many hours before jumping into another guys bed? I mean minutes is admirable, but hours...that's heroic.
    :rolleyes:

    You have to tell him. You should break up and try being single as you clearly lean on guys and have a massive problem in that area.
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    hahah, oh god.

    "IT WAS RAPE"

    rofl
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    I guess that's the crux of it. So many bad decisions had been made up to that point, that's where the difficulty of judgement comes in, but I commend the trust you have in your partner
    Take your points from above, I can only emphasise that I think we should avoid subsituting our judgement in hindsight for the judgements she made at the time, or letting our bafflement at her earlier poor decisions to negatively affect how we view the veracity of the claim or the seriousness of the offence.

    Thanks re your commendation, I don't think I could help but trust someone I love that much. It's bilateral too; I trust that he has integrity, he wouldn't lie to cover up something like that, and he trusts me and the solidity of our relationship that if something like that did happen, it would be far from enough to break the relationship. I suppose this couple were unlucky enough to get this only 3 months into the relationship. Certainly not ideal
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Last weekend me and my boyfriend of 3 months, although weve been dating nearly a year, had a huge fight. Its my first serious relationship and our first fight and i guess i overreacted. Either way i dealt with it in the most immature way possible by going out and getting ridiculously drunk. My female friend and i ended up going back with two guys we know. One of these i have previously given head to but that was a long time before i was with my boyfriend. However we have hung out alone since many times and nothing has ever happened. He has occasionally hit on me but it always seemed jokey so i assumed it was a one off for both of us. My boyfriend knows about this.

    However this night i was drunk angry and upset and asked if i could go sleep it off in his bed. I have slept in his bed, and drunk, before which again my boyfriend kniws about. He wasnt happy but he always appreciated the fact i didnt want to leave my friend on her own with two men. Again nothing has ever happened.

    This time at some point he came and woke me up getting into bed. He started trying it on with me. He tried to have sex i said no. He kissed me and i pushed him off. I told hin i didnt want him to make me a cheat. He got weird and pissed off i didnt want to do anything but then apologised. I made the biggest mistake and got back into bed. He started gettinf himself off next to me and then, it all happened quite quickly, he was on top of me and in my mouth for about 5 seconds before he finished in me. I did nothig to stop.it. My memory is blurry because of tiredness/drunken but i cant honestly say i did anything to stop him. I dont know why. Ive been drunk before. Ive been angry before.i know neither are an excuse.

    I have no feelings for this man. I never want to see him again and i will never speak to hin again. I hate myself for hurting my boyfriend. Hes the most amazing person i have ever met and i love him so much. I have never done anything like this before and i never wi again. My boyfriend was also my first. I have always told him the truth because i hate lying. Sone people say that it is best to not tell him and hurt his feelinngs over a one time thing like this and that he would not want to know. Is that really true? Is telling him selfish just to make my guilt go away because i hate lying? Im so confusef. I never thought i could be a cheat and i have no idea how to deal with the guilt because ive never really done anything 'bad' before? How do i tell him if that still is the right thing to do? Woukd he ever be able to care about me again?
    Nope, but then again I am completely anti-alcohol and would go out with anybody who drinks tbh.
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    (Original post by harrismahmood)
    Your argument is based on the assumption that whatever the law says, is right. A year ago in Nottingham if you injured a burglar he/she could take you to court.
    Is Nottingham its own legal jurisdiction? I'd always been under the (clearly mistaken) belief that it was part of the jurisdiction of England & Wales. In terms of burglars suing occupiers, it's always been possible and always unlikely to succeed due to the doctrine of ex turpi causa non oritur actio

    To get over that hurdle the homeowner needs to have acted reasonably and materially and measurably caused an injury that deprives the claimant of some benefit. Liability will only stand if the occupier has acted negligently or disproportionately, and considering the scope for reasonableness is widened by the stressful circumstances of having your home burgled, I can't foresee many instances where a claim would actually stand. So in practice, quite reasonable.

    Or do you think that trespassers and burglers concede any rights upon breaking the law? Shall we shoot minor trespassers and rape shoplifters? Or are occupiers only allowed to commit violent, non-sexual offences and in only some cases?

    See how much more nuanced and reasonable the law seems when you're not having it interpreted by the Daily Mail.

    The law at times is flawed, rape law is flawed, did you know by law a man cannot be raped?
    Except... they can be raped. S1 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 is quite clear.

    Can you not see the failure in that logic? The OP chose to get drunk, and in that state she consented, because by your definition, drunk sex is rape?
    Pastafarian, rather than the OP, said that sex while drunk is axiomatically non-consensual, so your logic fails again.

    It is not the law of England that getting drunk makes you liable to have any crime committed against you, nor would it be humane or sensible.

    Are you beginning to sense that you have prejudices and large knowledge gaps when it comes to the law? Perhaps you should do a bit of reading, and set aside your unexamined biases, before offering opinion.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
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    So you're a cheat because you were sexually assaulted?

    Guilt works in retarded ways.

    The guy stuck his **** in your mouth while you were tired, drunk and pretty out of it, so really it's more like a sexual assault taking advantage of your incapacitated state more than anything.

    I dunno if you should tell your boyfriend or not, if you could live with it I'd probably not, but that is assuming you can square off with the fact that you didn't do anything wrong and it was the guy's actions not yours.

    However telling him or not you need to get over the fact you think you cheated. You didn't.



    BUT in future you really need to stay in control of your drinking, that is just common sense, likewise you should be able to crash out on sofas, even floors if need be, inviting yourself into other men's beds is just outright silly, especially knowing you will be sharing it with him.


    Best of luck OP, whatever you do you need to realise though it was sexual assault, not cheating.
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    This isn't cheating, this is sexual assault. Yes, you were veru unwise to remain in a situation where a guy was clearly being inappropriate, but that does NOT excuse the fact that he has violated you. You should tell your boyfriend the truth, and if possible, inform the police. Good luck.
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    rape or no rape you seem to treat your bf like **** so you should probably finish with him.
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    #1

    Thanks for your help everyone. I plucked up the courage to ring Rape Crisis and Woman's Rights today and talk about what happened. I'm going into my local SARC tomorrow to get tests done and hopefully sort out some counselling. They'll also talk to me about reporting to the police although I'm not sure if that's something I can face just yet. Still blaming myself for what happened at the moment but I guess after reading all of these part of me realises that I should be blaming him as well. This has certainly given me a wake up call. No more drinking. No more partying. And start trying to handle things in a more responsible way. Hopefully when I finally get round to telling my boyfriend he'll realise that I'm trying to change so I don't get myself in any more dangerous situations but if he can't - I guess that's something I'll have to try and live with. Anyway, thank you all. OP.
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    Good luck
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    The man took advantage of you whilst you were drunk, he tried it on with you and you told him to stop. He then did it anyways.

    I don't know about you guys, but sounds like rape to me. I would tell your boyfriend then tell the police. Don't hide it from your boyfriend, I mean it doesn't even sound like your fault at all, the guy forced himself on you. I'm sure your boyfriend will understand the situation.
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    sounds a lot rape-like to me... and you were probably in too much shock to react...
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    I agree with some of the others, this doesn't sound like cheating to me. You didn't want to cheat. You said no, you told him you didn't want to, he came back and tried it on again and you were drunk and disorientated. The fact that he forced himself on you is disgusting. He's in the wrong here. I'd tell your boyfriend what happened, it doesn't sound like your fault.
 
 
 
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