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England the Conservative nation? Watch

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    If Scotland leaves the UK and then Wales follows suit

    England would probably have perennial Tory governments as Labour generally struggles in the less urban areas of the UK (i.e compare Manchester to Oxfordshire/Yorkshire)

    Looking at the 2010 general election map- England was a blue sea with blobs of red and an unsightly green at the bottom (Brighton-the only 'green' party MP)
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    I don't know A, I've met some rather unconservative fellows wandering around the TSR forest :beard:
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    This is correct, but Scottish independent tends to be contrary to the Tory vision of a UNITED Kingdom. One of those happy ironies, really.
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    (Original post by JollyGreenAtheist)
    This is correct, but Scottish independent tends to be contrary to the Tory vision of a UNITED Kingdom. One of those happy ironies, really.
    Well Labour want a united kingdom too and they might never get a majority again if Scotland and Wales go - particularly as long as the memories of the deeply unpopular Blair and Brown remain lol!
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    (Original post by a729)
    Well Labour want a united kingdom too and they might never get a majority again if Scotland and Wales go - particularly as long as the memories of the deeply unpopular Blair and Brown remain lol!
    I wouldn't say that Blair evokes particularly bad memories among Labour supporters. Regardless of opinions on his policies and achievements, he was a fantastic leader (in the way that Thatcher was a great leader too, even if I consider her policies utterly repugnant).

    New Labour will support the idea of a United Kingdom, but probably for less ideological reasons than the Tories. As you said, Labour would lose so many seats if Scotland and Wales went. Devolution occurred under Labour, which is testament to the view that they're not hugely fussed about removing powers from Westminster in lieu of devolved government.
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    (Original post by a729)
    If Scotland leaves the UK and then Wales follows suit

    England would probably have perennial Tory governments as Labour generally struggles in the less urban areas of the UK (i.e compare Manchester to Oxfordshire/Yorkshire)

    Looking at the 2010 general election map- England was a blue sea with blobs of red and an unsightly green at the bottom (Brighton-the only 'green' party MP)
    Were you looking at the proportional map or the regular one?

    Looking at the regular map is misleading. As you say, the Tories tend to do better in non-urban areas, which are more sparsely populated than the urban ones. If you look at the proportional version instead (where each constituency is the same size), then it doesn't look anywhere near as one sided. After all they didn't get a majority. I don't think they even got a majority in England alone.
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    (Original post by JollyGreenAtheist)
    I wouldn't say that Blair evokes particularly bad memories among Labour supporters. Regardless of opinions on his policies and achievements, he was a fantastic leader (in the way that Thatcher was a great leader too, even if I consider her policies utterly repugnant).

    New Labour will support the idea of a United Kingdom, but probably for less ideological reasons than the Tories. As you said, Labour would lose so many seats if Scotland and Wales went. Devolution occurred under Labour, which is testament to the view that they're not hugely fussed about removing powers from Westminster in lieu of devolved government.
    The Iraq war ruined Blair
    Brown

    Some people reckoned that a Scottish parliament would kill independence movements but ironically it strengthened them!

    Plus devolution to everyone but England meant the Tories couldn't undermine them via a mini government
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Were you looking at the proportional map or the regular one?

    Looking at the regular map is misleading. As you say, the Tories tend to do better in non-urban areas, which are more sparsely populated than the urban ones. If you look at the proportional version instead (where each constituency is the same size), then it doesn't look anywhere near as one sided. After all they didn't get a majority. I don't think they even got a majority in England alone.

    I looked at this map (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/)

    Though it's true how you present data can just be as important as what the data is.

    Either way labour would never a 13-year rule again

    They did a majority in England (http://www.opendemocracy.net/julian-...in-uk-as-whole)

    I guess the urban areas tend to be labour though London (the wealthiest part of the UK ) seems to split between the 2
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    Labour would just realign themselves if this happened.
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    (Original post by a729)
    The Iraq war ruined Blair
    Brown

    Some people reckoned that a Scottish parliament would kill independence movements but ironically it strengthened them!

    Plus devolution to everyone but England meant the Tories couldn't undermine them via a mini government
    The Iraq war did ruin Blair - I agree, but he got an awful lot done in his time at Number 10, and some people will forgive him because of that. Brown is a no hoper, but he has a lovely smile.

    Interestingly, devolution hasn't seemed to strengthen Plaid Cymru, for example. I wonder what makes Scotland so special...
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    (Original post by JollyGreenAtheist)
    The Iraq war did ruin Blair - I agree, but he got an awful lot done in his time at Number 10, and some people will forgive him because of that. Brown is a no hoper, but he has a lovely smile.

    Interestingly, devolution hasn't seemed to strengthen Plaid Cymru, for example. I wonder what makes Scotland so special...
    Scotland has the oil you see- it would make up to 20% of their tax revenues!

    Well I guess the Welsh know that the English will look after them financially lol!

    To be fair Labour were to EU-friendly for the liking of most (think the gains UKIP have been enjoying recently)
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    (Original post by a729)
    I looked at this map (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/election2010/results/)

    Though it's true how you present data can just be as important as what the data is.
    Click the "proportional" button. It makes it look a whole lot different.

    (Original post by a729)
    Either way labour would never a 13-year rule again
    Unless of course people decide to vote for different parties. Or that demographic changes cause a change in voting habits.

    (Original post by a729)
    They did a majority in England (http://www.opendemocracy.net/julian-...in-uk-as-whole)
    Ok, I stand corrected.

    (Original post by a729)
    I guess the urban areas tend to be labour though London (the wealthiest part of the UK ) seems to split between the 2
    Still majority Labour though.
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    Lets look at the the 2005 General election. Labour had 41 seats in Scotland, minus that from their total seats they would still have won 314 seats and have had a majority in parliament meaning that Labour still have a chance of getting elected.

    Still, if Scottish independence actually happens who ever wins the 2015 General Election will have to go about introducing at least some constituency boundary changes in favour of Labour to ensure that that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland because Labour rely on Scottish and Welsh seats to bolster their numbers and traditionally don't do as well in England. Even better we could take it as an opportunity to address the failures of first past the post and introduce a more proportional system of electing our MPs, in 2010 the Lib Dems got less than a third of the seats that Labour did despite a difference of only 4% in votes.
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    (Original post by Swanbow)
    Lets look at the the 2005 General election. Labour had 41 seats in Scotland, minus that from their total seats they would still have won 314 seats and have had a majority in parliament meaning that Labour still have a chance of getting elected.

    Still, if Scottish independence actually happens who ever wins the 2015 General Election will have to go about introducing at least some constituency boundary changes in favour of Labour to ensure that that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland because Labour rely on Scottish and Welsh seats to bolster their numbers and traditionally don't do as well in England. Even better we could take it as an opportunity to address the failures of first past the post and introduce a more proportional system of electing our MPs, in 2010 the Lib Dems got less than a third of the seats that Labour did despite a difference of only 4% in votes.
    The country already said No to that in a referendum lol!
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Click the "proportional" button. It makes it look a whole lot different.


    Unless of course people decide to vote for different parties. Or that demographic changes cause a change in voting habits.


    Ok, I stand corrected.



    Still majority Labour though.
    It still looks bad for Labour south of Nottingham bar London lol!

    Well I guess the last 2 years will be crucial in deciding the direction of the country- it's all to play for and with UKIP grabbing votes left right and centre no party can relax lol!
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    (Original post by a729)
    The country already said No to that in a referendum lol!
    It said no AV, a ******* child that most advocates of PR don't even support, in a campaign that was marked by misinformation and trying to equate complex electoral statistics and methods to a horse race.
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    Apparently Labour won a majority in England in 1997 and I think also in 2001. Back in the good ol' days pre-1960, up here in Scotland the map was mostly blue.
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    (Original post by Swanbow)
    It said no AV, a ******* child that most advocates of PR don't even support, in a campaign that was marked by misinformation and trying to equate complex electoral statistics and methods to a horse race.
    The same thing about misinformation could be said about the 1975 referendum on the common market!

    Plus bare in mind if the people rejected a compromise how likely would it be for them to go all the way to change the system? The power of inertia is very strong
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    (Original post by a729)
    The same thing about misinformation could be said about the 1975 referendum on the common market!

    Plus bare in mind if the people rejected a compromise how likely would it be for them to go all the way to change the system? The power of inertia is very strong
    The Conservatives refused to give the Lib Dems a referendum on PR or Mixed Member/Additional Member system because if they had and after a campaign had set the facts straight it would have gained a lot more support than AV and challenged First Past the Post. Instead they gave a referendum on AV, something that confuses just about everyone, is hardly used and almost universally disliked knowing full well that the public would reject it. From then on they could set the matter of proportional voting aside saying the 'public don't want it' and continue to rip off the Lib Dems and UKIP for the expense of the Tories and Labour and their dominance through First Past the Post.
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    Being from a post-Communist Poland I genuinely think that while England can be considered ethically conservative, in terms of its socio-economic & political order you definitely are a progressive nation.

    In Poland we have 2 dominant parties that are socio-economically right-wing ranging from Christian Democracy to Reaganomics. PO & Donald Tusk are 'socially liberal' yet it would never occur to them, as to a right wing party, to pass a gay marriage legislation as David Cameron & the Conservatives just did.

    You are quite progressive, despite having clear conservative ethics. It's quite an interesting phenomenon actually.
 
 
 
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