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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    There's a difference between social/civil liberties and economic liberties is there? A clear cut difference? So being poor or rich makes no difference to what one's social or civil freedom?
    Economic liberties are generally transactional and can involve depriving other people of resources, hence I support some restrictions there and have not included it. I believe it does make a huge difference which is why I support safety nets and tend to identify as being more left than right-wing


    The point I'm making is that there are opposing interests in society. The people at the top who make the decisions often have opposing interests to the people at the bottom.
    The only thing that can really be done about that, short of discarding these executive bodies altogether (anarchism), is ensuring maximum transparency so that any obvious biases and ulterior motives will be exposed by independent observers
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Yes, I know what nurses do, thanks. I'm training to be one.

    I suggest you go and talk to some teachers. You'll be surprised.
    Surprised by what? No teacher i know of has lost a leg to a IED whilst handing out detentions.

    I've never once said it's not a stressful job, i just fails to see how on earth you and compare it too the other two professions?

    And whilst you have my respect and admiration for wanting to do what you do, i still fail to see in what way that's relevant?

    Are you actually suggesting outside of the possibly bias opinion of teacher them selves that teaching is, day on day more stressful that working on the front line of the NHS or indeed a warzone?
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    Scrap tax on second jobs. It's simply another tax on the poor. Someone who needs a second job clearly isn't someone in a position to pay more tax.
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    (Original post by dave_123)
    Surprised by what? No teacher i know of has lost a leg to a IED whilst handing out detentions.

    I've never once said it's not a stressful job, i just fails to see how on earth you and compare it too the other two professions?

    And whilst you have my respect and admiration for wanting to do what you do, i still fail to see in what way that's relevant?

    Are you actually suggesting outside of the possibly bias opinion of teacher them selves that teaching is, day on day more stressful that working on the front line of the NHS or indeed a warzone?
    What the **** has the army got to do with it? **** the army, quite frankly.
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    (Original post by Redolent)
    Economic liberties are generally transactional and can involve depriving other people of resources, hence I support some restrictions there and have not included it. I believe it does make a huge difference which is why I support safety nets and tend to identify as being more left than right-wing
    I'm not quite sure how this answers my question.


    (Original post by Redolent)
    The only thing that can really be done about that, short of discarding these executive bodies altogether (anarchism), is ensuring maximum transparency so that any obvious biases and ulterior motives will be exposed by independent observers
    Then you run into the same problem. Who picks the observers?

    This is the problem with capitalism and class society. Different class's interests are opposed. What will seem right to one group of people won't to another. The people who win that argument are the ones in power. Leaving your claim to transparency and fairness in tatters.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    What the **** has the army got to do with it? **** the army, quite frankly.
    What does the Military have to do with stressful work environments and lack of correct pay? :rolleyes:

    Your clearly not willing to engage in a civil debate about the issue or bring any real evidence to the table (other than "go ask a teacher") as too why teachers deserve a pay raise before NHS front line staff or other stressful job like the military (regardless of how little you appreciate them)

    So i'll leave it at that.

    I certainly hope your bed side manner is a whole lot better than this by the way.
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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    What do you plan do to in these breaks?
    Rest? If I needed surgery the last thing I'd want is for the doctors, nurses, etc. to be knackered. It makes them more prone to making mistakes and what-have-you.

    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    the workers aren't exploited, then give it a rest.
    Wage labour in a nutshell. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by dave_123)
    What does the Military have to do with stressful work environments and lack of correct pay? :rolleyes:
    tbh, I don't care about the army, but if they want to organise collectively for better pay and conditions, good luck to 'em

    (Original post by dave_123)
    Your clearly not willing to engage in a civil debate about the issue or bring any real evidence to the table (other than "go ask a teacher") as too why teachers deserve a pay raise before NHS front line staff or other stressful job like the military (regardless of how little you appreciate them)
    Ahhhh, a straw man. Where did I say that "teachers deserve a pay raise before NHS front line staff or other stressful job like the military"?

    Oh. I didn't.

    (Original post by dave_123)
    So i'll leave it at that.

    I certainly hope your bed side manner is a whole lot better than this by the way.
    And personal insults to top it off.

    Good night.
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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    What do you plan do to in these breaks?
    Rest? If I needed surgery the last thing I'd want is for the doctors, nurses, etc. to be knackered. It makes them more prone to making mistakes and what-have-you.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)


    And personal insults to top it off.

    Good night.
    I will truly leave it after this, but where did i insult you, you swore at me and i simply stated that i hoped you wouldn't treat patients in the same manner.

    In fact i think in my previous posts i complicated you on your admirable career choice.

    Good night
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    (Original post by dave_123)
    I will truly leave it after this, but where did i insult you, you swore at me and i simply stated that i hoped you wouldn't treat patients in the same manner.

    In fact i think in my previous posts i complicated you on your admirable career choice.

    Good night
    Where did I swear at you? Oh. I didn't. I swore, but not at you. Your dishonesty does you a disservice.

    Sleep well.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    You're arguing for "experts" to decide what is right and wrong and its not paternalism? Come on ffs.
    Of course it's not paternalism. Paternalism is "I can't let you do that because I know what's best for you". This is "I can't let you do that because I know it's harmful to a third party".
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    (Original post by mmmpie)
    Of course it's not paternalism. Paternalism is "I can't let you do that because I know what's best for you". This is "I can't let you do that because I know it's harmful to a third party".
    I don't think you've been following the discussion. Redolent is arguing that a panel of "experts" will be able to absolutely determine what is harmful for everyone across all society. I've argued that this is impossible due to what is seen as harmful being, at least in part, socially and economically determined. So Redolent is arguing for a panel in a dominant class position to rule on what is harmful, despite some things that are harmful to working class people may be beneficial to the ruling class. So in effect, she or he is proposing a form of paternalism.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    I'm not quite sure how this answers my question.
    You asked what the difference between social and economic freedoms are and I attempted a brief explanation. You also asked if I think being rich/poor impacts one's ability to take advantage of their social freedoms, to which I said yes.

    Then you run into the same problem. Who picks the observers?

    This is the problem with capitalism and class society. Different class's interests are opposed. What will seem right to one group of people won't to another. The people who win that argument are the ones in power. Leaving your claim to transparency and fairness in tatters.
    Everyone is an observer if something is entirely transparent.

    It doesn't really leave it in "tatters", conflicting interests are fairly easy to pick up on in open public debate. We are talking about defining "harm" here, not too long ago a harmful action would just involve physically attacking someone. Now we might include being deliberately destructive to someone's mental state, or deliberately refusing to help someone in need when it would not greatly inconvenience a person to do so (and that sort of thing is best left to the courts on a case by case basis). I don't think it's that much of a difficult obstacle to overcome, really.

    In what way are class interests opposed when it comes to civil liberties? I think the desire for freedom of speech and action is pretty heavily sought after regardless of your economic situation

    I can think of no decent solution to the problems you are raising and I don't think they really apply to what I'm saying, since they apply to our current economic system and I'm not addressing the question of distribution of resources / private property. I pretty much said "I want to ease up on paternalistic laws" (e.g. drug laws, laws restricting the arts in the name of taste) and I think those cases are quite unambiguous.
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    No bedroom tax!
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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    Say you are now the Prime Minister of Great Britain and you are granted one wish with absolutely no strong opposition.

    You can change anything, from the practices of the state to how people think.

    What would you do?

    For me, I would abolish inheritance tax. It is the final blow for a hard-working individual.

    Thank you, TSR.
    I would go all out to improve labour productivity levels to at least the same as the Germans.
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    (Original post by The Socktor)
    Rest? If I needed surgery the last thing I'd want is for the doctors, nurses, etc. to be knackered. It makes them more prone to making mistakes and what-have-you.
    But the breaks shouldn't be too long, just enough to refresh.
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    (Original post by Tackla)
    No bedroom tax!
    It's not a tax.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    I don't think you've been following the discussion. Redolent is arguing that a panel of "experts" will be able to absolutely determine what is harmful for everyone across all society. I've argued that this is impossible due to what is seen as harmful being, at least in part, socially and economically determined. So Redolent is arguing for a panel in a dominant class position to rule on what is harmful, despite some things that are harmful to working class people may be beneficial to the ruling class. So in effect, she or he is proposing a form of paternalism.
    I agree that experts shouldn't make decisions on behalf of everyone else, but it's not a power issue. It's an issue that people can make their own minds up.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Repeal the repressive anti trade union laws.
    I'm with you all the way. Most people aren't class conscious about their position in the relations of production and while completely supporting the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, they'll do anything not to hear the voice of the exploited proletariat.
 
 
 
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