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Sick of SS Watch

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    Okay, I'm sick of SS. I stuck with it a bit longer but I've made bugger all progress in the last 3 months.

    I'm eating 3-3.5k kcals and although I'm putting on weight I think I'm gaining too much fat and I'm also stalling unless I eat 4k and then I end up getting fat real quickly. I eat about 180g protein a day.

    Height: 5'8"
    Weight: 70kg
    Squat: 110kg
    Bench: 60kg
    OHP: 40kg
    Deadlift: 127.5kg
    Row: 60kg

    All 5RMs. I just don't feel like SS is working. I've put on 2-3kg in the last 3 months but it almost all feels like fat tbh. I also seem really injury prone and have picked up a bunch of over-use strains on the past 3 months (Trap has bugged 2-3 times, left hip has been problematic).

    Would be happy putting on stregnth gains once a week but would like to put on some actual mass to look like I lift now given I've been training over 9 months now.

    Suggestions? Was thinking of going onto the Texas method. I don't want to spend more than an hour/hour and a half with warmup and I can go up to 4 times a week.
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    Keep doing SS for another 3 months you're doing well, but add in these exercises....after the 3 months go on a 5x5 routine...madcow or texas I think they're called.

    A
    3x5 Squat
    3x5 Bench Press
    1x5 Deadlift
    Seated dumbbell press 3x8
    Pull-ups 3x whatever

    B
    3x5 Squat
    3x5 Press
    5x3 Power Cleans or Rows
    Dips 3x5-8
    Pull-ups 3x whatever
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    Always going to take a while to get a good physique as a male...you need to gain mass which is the slowest process which you still need to do by the sounds of it....then cut while keeping that mass.

    Female is easy....just cut which is a fast and easy process and do some squats and deadlifts now and then and you've got a 10/10 body because standards are so low and other females are so clueless about training and your competition also doesn't take steds.
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    (Original post by McHumpy92)
    Always going to take a while to get a good physique as a male...you need to gain mass which is the slowest process which you still need to do by the sounds of it....then cut while keeping that mass.

    Female is easy....just cut which is a fast and easy process and do some squats and deadlifts now and then and you've got a 10/10 body because standards are so low and other females are so clueless about training and your competition also doesn't take steds.
    This is annoyingly true. Worst still every female I've talked to about the matter seems to think guys can go from a sedentary physique to a well built and lean physique with solid musculature in a matter of months...

    Don't think the misconception is helped by all these actors with great bodies who make rapid transformations in 3-6 months for movies *cough* roids *cough* and then are not honest about it (though I don't blame them with the ridiculous public opinion on steroids) putting the transformation down purely to hard work and a clean diet LOL.
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    @ Rollerball why don't you try what I do which is to take the core lifts from SS/SL and then suplement with extra upper body work? I pretty much did that from the start and it seems to have made my upper stronger quicker than you and Areeb (who also used to follow SS strictly).

    4 months lifting and 5 RM's at
    Height: 6'0.5
    Weight: 80kg
    Squat: 85kg
    Bench: 70kg
    OHP: 50kg
    Deadlift: 135kg
    Row: 67.5kg

    So only my squat is behind (though admittedly quite considerably) and I started from a completely sedentary state (no real exercise for 3+ years).
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    (Original post by In One Ear)
    This is annoyingly true. Worst still every female I've talked to about the matter seems to think guys can go from a sedentary physique to a well built and lean physique with solid musculature in a matter of months...

    Don't think the misconception is helped by all these actors with great bodies who make rapid transformations in 3-6 months for movies *cough* roids *cough* and then are not honest about it (though I don't blame them with the ridiculous public opinion on steroids) putting the transformation down purely to hard work and a clean diet LOL.
    The ones I know are the same...they actually say stuff to me like 'why aren't you as big as him, since you go the gym'...the person they point out is clearly on roids and very dedicated and I train for mainly athleticism. They cannot get it on their head that someone outside of a 'dirty cheating sportsman' would take steroids, they cannot possibly fathom that someone could possibly go to the gym because they enjoy it or actually want to improve speed/strength and not just do it to look better to impress whatever sex you're attracted to. The best of it is they look like utter crap!

    Then sometimes when I come back from the gym they accuse my of steroids and try and get me to confess like they don't mind if I am....when I am not. Obvious roider is not on steroids, but me who isn't big and weight doesn't fluctuate is clearly on them......female logic!

    I am pretty sure if I keep living with middle class white females I am going to kill one!
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    (Original post by McHumpy92)
    The ones I know are the same...they actually say stuff to me like 'why aren't you as big as him, since you go the gym'...the person they point out is clearly on roids and very dedicated and I train for mainly athleticism. They cannot get it on their head that someone outside of a 'dirty cheating sportsman' would take steroids, they cannot possibly fathom that someone could possibly go to the gym because they enjoy it or actually want to improve speed/strength and not just do it to look better to impress whatever sex you're attracted to. The best of it is they look like utter crap!

    Then sometimes when I come back from the gym they accuse my of steroids and try and get me to confess like they don't mind if I am....when I am not. Obvious roider is not on steroids, but me who isn't big and weight doesn't fluctuate is clearly on them......female logic!I am pretty sure if I keep living with middle class white females I am going to kill one!
    TBH I doubt many (any) of them have any understanding of the concept of weight fluctuation when cycling roids. In fact most people know very little about them. Everyone assumes that if you take roids, you look like a Mr Olympia contestant and they don't realise that pretty much every gym has people on roids going to them- even commercial gyms.

    My flatmate for instance (despite otherwise being fairly intelligent and into sports/going to the gym himself) is convinced that its not roids that actors (or people who undergo rapid transformations) use, its "protein and creatine"... *facepalm*.
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    Not gonna commit to a hypertrophy range and strength range, as there's a blur, but maybe you wanna start hitting 7-10 reps on some of your exercises. <5 reps will build mass a lot slower. 'Tis true in practice.

    I don't buy this "eat more, get bigger, be stronger" entirely. As with most things in life IT DEPENDS. If you are far from exhausting newb gains then your strength stalling is unlikely to be food related. It could be stress, it could be nutrition (ie not getting your micronutrients), could be poor neuromuscular connection and lifting technique, and a bunch of other things. I've been lifting for months on a deficit and I'm 73kg @5'9.5 so I'm hardly carrying much excess fat that is helping me lift more, yet my lifts have never really stalled to this point.

    If mass is your aim and you don't have the patience to build a strong foundation, 3x5 may not be for you. It's low volume.

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    After reading the title, for a moment I thought OP was living in Nazi Germany and the SS were bothering him.
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    It doesn't matter what routine you do, any routine will work, your problem isn't your routine. If you say you are making progress at 4k kcal then there's your answer, start eating 4k kcal. I really don't people like you that want gain strength but are adamant to not put on any fat. There are few people in this world that are capable of doing that with ease, for everyone else it takes a lot of knowledge and hard work to gain and stay cut. Unfortunately this more knowledge than anyone on tsr will be able to share with you. You just need to face facts that if you want to get stronger and bulk you are going to have to put on some fat. That's just the way it is for like 90% of lifters, either accept it or don't make any progress. Especially the bench press, it is one of the main exercises where to get good many people need to compromise the six pack.

    By the sounds of it due to your genetics/just the way your body functions you need a lot of calories to gain muscle, some people can gain easily with less calories some can't, unfortunately you seem to be one of these people. That's just life, but if you are serious about lifting then you have to accept it, otherwise you will spend the rest of your weightlifting life scrolling through forums asking "why can't i gain" and making excuses like "SS doesn't work for me" etc. Like I said it's not your program it's you!
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    Come own, I can't buy this.

    Height: 5'8" @ Weight: 70kg in 3 months? What was your starting weight?
    Squat: 110kg -- should've went from 3x5x65kg or BW to this by the end of the 3rd week of training.
    Bench: 60kg
    OHP: 40kg
    Deadlift: 127.5kg -- should've started around maybe BW to an *easy* 160kg pull, weighing in at high-70s in 12 weeks
    Row: 60kg

    The lifts are far behind what you ought to have achieved by now. At least 3x5x140kg squat and a 160kg DL, the other lifts also proportionally up. 3-3.5kcals is perfectly adequate for your height and weight. I suspect most a detrimental miscalculation on your end, whether it's to do with training or your diet (perhaps sleeping habits? I don't even know, because I remember being nocturnal when I started SS and I still made comparable progress to my later training partners), but no human is as unadaptable as this.
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    implementing assistance or speed work would help.
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    (Original post by Fan service)
    Come own, I can't buy this.

    Height: 5'8" @ Weight: 70kg in 3 months? What was your starting weight?
    Squat: 110kg -- should've went from 3x5x65kg or BW to this by the end of the 3rd week of training.
    Bench: 60kg
    OHP: 40kg
    Deadlift: 127.5kg -- should've started around maybe BW to an *easy* 160kg pull, weighing in at high-70s in 12 weeks
    Row: 60kg

    The lifts are far behind what you ought to have achieved by now. At least 3x5x140kg squat and a 160kg DL, the other lifts also proportionally up. 3-3.5kcals is perfectly adequate for your height and weight. I suspect most a detrimental miscalculation on your end, whether it's to do with training or your diet (perhaps sleeping habits? I don't even know, because I remember being nocturnal when I started SS and I still made comparable progress to my later training partners), but no human is as unadaptable as this.
    LOL...it wouldn't be normal to be squatting 140kg 3x5 after 3 months of training...you would be genetically gifted in squats if you could do that.
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    (Original post by McHumpy92)
    The ones I know are the same...they actually say stuff to me like 'why aren't you as big as him, since you go the gym'...the person they point out is clearly on roids and very dedicated and I train for mainly athleticism. They cannot get it on their head that someone outside of a 'dirty cheating sportsman' would take steroids, they cannot possibly fathom that someone could possibly go to the gym because they enjoy it or actually want to improve speed/strength and not just do it to look better to impress whatever sex you're attracted to. The best of it is they look like utter crap!

    Then sometimes when I come back from the gym they accuse my of steroids and try and get me to confess like they don't mind if I am....when I am not. Obvious roider is not on steroids, but me who isn't big and weight doesn't fluctuate is clearly on them......female logic!

    I am pretty sure if I keep living with middle class white females I am going to kill one!
    Preach brah!

    Also chicks who base how hench you are based on the size of your biceps.
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    (Original post by Fan service)
    Come own, I can't buy this.

    Height: 5'8" @ Weight: 70kg in 3 months? What was your starting weight?
    Squat: 110kg -- should've went from 3x5x65kg or BW to this by the end of the 3rd week of training.
    Bench: 60kg
    OHP: 40kg
    Deadlift: 127.5kg -- should've started around maybe BW to an *easy* 160kg pull, weighing in at high-70s in 12 weeks
    Row: 60kg

    The lifts are far behind what you ought to have achieved by now. At least 3x5x140kg squat and a 160kg DL, the other lifts also proportionally up. 3-3.5kcals is perfectly adequate for your height and weight. I suspect most a detrimental miscalculation on your end, whether it's to do with training or your diet (perhaps sleeping habits? I don't even know, because I remember being nocturnal when I started SS and I still made comparable progress to my later training partners), but no human is as unadaptable as this.
    110kg squats in 3 weeks of training? Don't be a joker... The 160kg pull in 12 weeks is also overly ambitious. I've pulled 160kg in 16 weeks but its by far my best lift and I'm 10kg heavier (along with 3 inches extra height). Type in strength standards into the net and a 160kg pull at 70kg BW classifies as approximately half way between an intermediate and advanced deadlift where intermediate is defined as 9 months-2 years and advanced 2 years+ training.

    I'd be happy to take 110kg squats 3x5 with deep depth after 9 months lifting but I'm a notoriously bad squatter. Agree though that the upper body lifts are definitely lacking for 9 months training, though the rate of progression you suggest is insane. Not all of us are built with large bone structures and heavy natural muscle mass perfect for shifting heavy loads.
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    (Original post by napoleons)
    After reading the title, for a moment I thought OP was living in Nazi Germany and the SS were bothering him.
    I thought (because I never go into specific forums) that he was bored of Sprinter Sacre destroying every other horse it comes up against.
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    (Original post by McHumpy92)
    LOL...it wouldn't be normal to be squatting 140kg 3x5 after 3 months of training...you would be genetically gifted in squats if you could do that.
    (Original post by In One Ear)
    110kg squats in 3 weeks of training? Don't be a joker... The 160kg pull in 12 weeks is also overly ambitious. I've pulled 160kg in 16 weeks but its by far my best lift and I'm 10kg heavier (along with 3 inches extra height). Type in strength standards into the net and a 160kg pull at 70kg BW classifies as approximately half way between an intermediate and advanced deadlift where intermediate is defined as 9 months-2 years and advanced 2 years+ training.
    I still think it's demonstrable I've still seen it demonstrated (I dunno, my 5'11" brother for instance who can only squat 85kg for a single is starting gym in mid-April, I might feel compelled to video a before and after if he doesn't care) in average people with average genetics. OP's slow progress might be indicative of some kind of error on their end, whcih is what I think is happening.

    This is a textbook squat LP for the skinny/average guy between ~5'6" - 5'10", I have no experience training with taller people.

    3x5x65kg (i.e. starting BW - 5kg)
    3x5x70kg
    3x5x75kg

    3x5x80kg
    3x5x85kg
    3x5x90kg

    3x5x92.5kg
    3x5x95kg
    3x5x97.5kg

    3x5x100kg
    3x5x102.5kg
    3x5x105kg

    Progress in 1kg increments until stall (3x5x140kg in another 32 consecutive sessions on 3-3.5kcals/day: done in 15 weeks from start). Admittedly, having just wrote it out, I made some embarrassingly hasty estimates, but it's close enough. Less than 4 months to 3x5x140kg, and less than 5 weeks to 3x5x110kg. I reached the same milestone on the Friday of my 3rd week so I know it's doable, eating just 3kcals worth of bacon and pasta and junk food, which means a considerable vitamin deficiency and I still somehow managed. The slowest progresser who I've known personally to do everything right switched from 3x5 to 5x3 at 110kg, and still made it to-and-beyond 140kg in less than 4 months. I only talk about the squat b/c the other lift go up proportionally unless there's an injury somewhere.

    EDIT #2: NO, I was right the first time! I went up in 1.5kg increments, as well as everyone else I've trained with who bought the 0.25kg fractional plates on ebay. That's another 8 weeks to 3x5x141kg. I know 4 newbs who've long completed NLP at this speed not inc. me.
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    (Original post by Fan service)
    I still think it's demonstrable I've still seen it demonstrated (I dunno, my 5'11" brother for instance who can only squat 85kg for a single is starting gym in mid-April, I might feel compelled to video a before and after if he doesn't care) in average people with average genetics. OP's slow progress might be indicative of some kind of error on their end, whcih is what I think is happening.

    This is a textbook squat LP for the skinny/average guy between ~5'6" - 5'10", I have no experience training with taller people.

    3x5x65kg (i.e. starting BW - 5kg)
    3x5x70kg
    3x5x75kg

    3x5x80kg
    3x5x85kg
    3x5x90kg

    3x5x92.5kg
    3x5x95kg
    3x5x97.5kg

    3x5x100kg
    3x5x102.5kg
    3x5x105kg

    Progress in 1kg increments until stall (3x5x140kg in another 32 consecutive sessions on 3-3.5kcals/day: done in 15 weeks from start). Admittedly, having just wrote it out, I made some embarrassingly hasty estimates, but it's close enough. Less than 4 months to 3x5x140kg, and less than 5 weeks to 3x5x110kg. I reached the same milestone on the Friday of my 3rd week so I know it's doable, eating just 3kcals worth of bacon and pasta and junk food, which means a considerable vitamin deficiency and I still somehow managed. The slowest progresser who I've known personally to do everything right switched from 3x5 to 5x3 at 110kg, and still made it to-and-beyond 140kg in less than 4 months. I only talk about the squat b/c the other lift go up proportionally unless there's an injury somewhere.

    EDIT #2: NO, I was right the first time! I went up in 1.5kg increments, as well as everyone else I've trained with who bought the 0.25kg fractional plates on ebay. That's another 8 weeks to 3x5x141kg. I know 4 newbs who've long completed NLP at this speed not inc. me.
    Well clearly you've seen guys with this rate of progression, but there is no way I could have squatted 3x5x65kg with anything resembling good depth on my first session. I was still feeling crushed trying to squat 60kg-65kg on like my 10th session with depth at or just above parallel....

    Having seen others doing SS/SL alongside me from similar start points I'd have to say I've seen none make anywhere near this rate of progression on squats. I've seen a lot of guys have issues with the OHP from 40kg-50kg taking a while to get from one to the other and a lot of guys start having problems with the bench somewhere between 50kg and 80kg depending on their build. I would say that on balance I'm making slow progress on the squat, slightly slow progress on the bench, moderate progress on the OHP and good progress on the deadlift.

    You say "skinny" guys between 5'6-'5'10 should be able to squat 140kg 3x5 within 4 months training- well out of the 7 guys in my flat the only guy I think could achieve that happens to be a 6 foot 100kg long time rugby player who has lifted weights on and off briefly anyway, and this guy has big muscular legs and the biggest calves I have ever seen. One of the other guys could probably make about 110-120kg but he is 6'2 90kg with a history in sports too. The inactive "skinny" guys 5'6-5'10 in my flat probably couldn't squat 40kg for a single (I'm really not exaggerating)- looking at the way they are built I doubt you could get them repping 140kg in anything less than 1.5 years at best. Thinking across to the flat opposite where all the guys (bar 1) happen to be skinny and untrained too, I would willingly bet a million pounds you couldn't get a single one of them to squat 140kg 3x5 in 4 months.

    You talk about error on the OPs part- just how much error can there be? All you have to do is squat 3x/week, eat enough (and get enough protein) and sleep about 8 hours a night.

    "The slowest progresser who I've known personally to do everything right switched from 3x5 to 5x3 at 110kg, and still made it to-and-beyond 140kg in less than 4 months"

    **** then I really need you to train me lol and show me what I'm doing so terribly wrong (because I'm a million miles from being at that point). If progression is really this quick why is it such a rarity seeing 3+ plate squats in the gym? Hell I rarely even see 2+ plate squats with anything remotely resembling depth- only typically from the big guys that inhabit every gym or sometimes the rugby players who are always in the gym training. Equally 3+ plate deadlifts for reps are a rare sight.

    IDK though maybe I'm just bitter because evidently I'm not a good squatter. To be fair though I could probably pull 140kg*5 as an absolute max currently with just 4 months training, but presumably you would except more than that (?) since deadlifts tend to be higher than squats for all but advanced powerlifters/equipped lifters. That said though I haven't personally met anyone with a similar bone structure/starting point as me whos progressed this rapidly with deads. I know many people (w/ similar builds to mine) who have been lifting weights in the region of 9 months- 1 year who are stuck with around 120-140kg 1 RM deadlifts though they havn't deadlifted consistently for the whole period.
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    (Original post by Fan service)
    I still think it's demonstrable I've still seen it demonstrated (I dunno, my 5'11" brother for instance who can only squat 85kg for a single is starting gym in mid-April, I might feel compelled to video a before and after if he doesn't care) in average people with average genetics. OP's slow progress might be indicative of some kind of error on their end, whcih is what I think is happening.

    This is a textbook squat LP for the skinny/average guy between ~5'6" - 5'10", I have no experience training with taller people.

    3x5x65kg (i.e. starting BW - 5kg)
    3x5x70kg
    3x5x75kg

    3x5x80kg
    3x5x85kg
    3x5x90kg

    3x5x92.5kg
    3x5x95kg
    3x5x97.5kg

    3x5x100kg
    3x5x102.5kg
    3x5x105kg

    Progress in 1kg increments until stall (3x5x140kg in another 32 consecutive sessions on 3-3.5kcals/day: done in 15 weeks from start). Admittedly, having just wrote it out, I made some embarrassingly hasty estimates, but it's close enough. Less than 4 months to 3x5x140kg, and less than 5 weeks to 3x5x110kg. I reached the same milestone on the Friday of my 3rd week so I know it's doable, eating just 3kcals worth of bacon and pasta and junk food, which means a considerable vitamin deficiency and I still somehow managed. The slowest progresser who I've known personally to do everything right switched from 3x5 to 5x3 at 110kg, and still made it to-and-beyond 140kg in less than 4 months. I only talk about the squat b/c the other lift go up proportionally unless there's an injury somewhere.

    EDIT #2: NO, I was right the first time! I went up in 1.5kg increments, as well as everyone else I've trained with who bought the 0.25kg fractional plates on ebay. That's another 8 weeks to 3x5x141kg. I know 4 newbs who've long completed NLP at this speed not inc. me.
    I think I got to 105x5 within 3-4 months, then I had niggly knee and back injuries, stop-started a couple of times and now I'm back up to that in the last about 4-5 weeks. During my lay off I did plenty of mobility and stretching and even learned to pistol squat. However, the initial 105x5 compared to now, my form is a hell of a lot better. Better depth, better groove, better hip drive, less body strain overall. Suffice to say id class my squatting back then as pretty ****ty and not a legit set.

    I think the majority of newbs will run in to problems such as flexibility, mobility and other parts in the chain that will limit them. For example I know now my ****ty shoulders gave me mid-back strain when I had my hands back on the bar in the squat position. I thought it was a weak mid-back but it wasn't.

    140kg in 4 months although doable is very ambitious IMO. Perhaps with good coaching it's possible but for loner newbs with no experience, I think not. Lifting has a big learning curve and inevitably you run in to problems.

    I also pulled 145x5 in 4 months with generally good form (double overhand grip btw not mixed-- could do more mixed but I quite like having my bicep attached). It gave me stiff back and hips though-- indicative of strain, going up too quickly etc and I also rounded once when lowering and it gave me a minor injury for several weeks. I don't deadlift anymore as I quite like having loose hips and back for running/football. Maybe in the future. If I were advising me as a newb, id tell me not to go up the weights so fast. Don't be a hero. Tendons, ligaments, joints in general need time to adjust. Joints of steel can only be forged over years not months.

    Incidentally aesthetically I look tonnes better and that's my main indicator of progress, not how much I'm racking on the bar because you can lift lots and not look like you lift.

    5'9.5 73kg btw (started at 84kg which probably explains much of the big gains)
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    (Original post by In One Ear)
    You talk about error on the OPs part- just how much error can there be? All you have to do is squat 3x/week, eat enough (and get enough protein) and sleep about 8 hours a night.
    Exactly. I like to roam these forums because I'm on my gap year with nothing to do but study/train/internet and in hindsight there've been a lot of threads where people talk about not making the kind of straightforward, ABC progress that I've seen with my own eyes, and that I'd expect from what they claim to have done.

    I hear you on the skinny part. By skinny I mean 62kg at 5'7" or 68kg at 5'11", inbetween those lines. People can start out much much skinnier (and weaker), but I haven't been around these kinds of trainees. In theory I'd assume they'd progress faster initially. It wouldn't take them a while to squat bodyweight for 3 sets of 5, and even after the training it takes to get them to that point, they wouldn't be anywhere near exhausting their novice adaptability.

    "The slowest progresser who I've known personally to do everything right switched from 3x5 to 5x3 at 110kg, and still made it to-and-beyond 140kg in less than 4 months"

    (Original post by In One Ear)
    IDK though maybe I'm just bitter because evidently I'm not a good squatter.
    You're still on the far right of the bell curve. I was incredibly lucky to be able to maintain consistency in my weekly routine for the first 4 or so months of training. Maybe if I describe how NLP was for me, you might find things that could improve your own. It's quite nostalgic lmao.

    I spent an hour in the morning cooking 400g (~1kcals) of either beef or bacon (can be any lean/fatty meat) mixed in a plastic container with 500g of white pasta w/ added sauce or it'd be dry as hell. That's 2750 calories, + junk food/sugary drinks makes over 3000. That would last me 4 meals, and I'd literally count how many fusilli I'd eat to keep meals more or less even; I found myself eating over half the tub in one go after I started nearing the 140, eager to finally put 3 plates on each side. I suppose the same amount of consistency is needed in terms of calorie intake if you don't cook your own food, or end up doing it multiple times a day. I still do the plastic container thing, except the meat is a little less processed and I can afford vegetables (for now). Hope that helps. I don't particularly like talking about myself but there you go lol.
 
 
 
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