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    (Original post by Nick100)
    The NHS is not being cut; its budget has not decreased from the 2008 level. Look at the budget reports. The Social Protection budget also jumped massively following the financial crisis. Most of the "cuts" are cuts in projected increases in spending which relied in the assumption of ~3% growth per year.

    Why do poor people receive worse education? They are less politically active, there is little competition between state schools, and there's no consequence for failure in the education system. Also, much of the budget for improving schools went into fancy new buildings instead of improving teaching.

    Finally it isn't "class war" because "the rich" aren't some monolithic, static class. Aside from the fact that most people in the top 1% don't stay there for very long, they aren't all bankers and they didn't all benefit from the banking bailout - some banks didn't even benefit from the bailout because it meant they were paying for their competitors screw ups.

    Exactly
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    The NHS is not being cut; its budget has not decreased from the 2008 level. Look at the budget reports. The Social Protection budget also jumped massively following the financial crisis. Most of the "cuts" are cuts in projected increases in spending which relied in the assumption of ~3% growth per year.
    Which are, in effect, cuts. You have to take into account inflation and the increased cost of medical treatment, which tends to outpace inflation.

    Tell any frontline NHS worker that cuts aren't happening and they'll laugh in your face.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    Why do poor people receive worse education? They are less politically active, there is little competition between state schools, and there's no consequence for failure in the education system. Also, much of the budget for improving schools went into fancy new buildings instead of improving teaching.
    Working class people have historically been very politically active. Granted, we are at a low ebb of working class activity, but its picking up. There were bedroom tax demos across the country yesterday.

    As for your comment about schools? Doesn't make any sense. What evidence do you have that competition would increase standards?

    (Original post by Nick100)
    Finally it isn't "class war" because "the rich" aren't some monolithic, static class.
    I didn't say they were.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    Aside from the fact that most people in the top 1% don't stay there for very long, they aren't all bankers and they didn't all benefit from the banking bailout - some banks didn't even benefit from the bailout because it meant they were paying for their competitors screw ups.


    Didn't say that either. You're gonna have to come up with something better than these pathetic strawmen.
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    (Original post by Scots King)
    They wouldn't all have failed - only the big ones like RBS

    I'm quite sure the Bank of England would have coped - they currently print money to sit in bank's reserves as it is (QE), in the interim money could have been printed by the Bank of England and distributed. This would only be necessary until the Government paid out under the compensation scheme.
    What would have been the consequences of cash points running out of money and a big bank going down? A run on other banks do you think? How much would the compensation scheme have costed? Why would the Bank of England capitalise failed banks via QE?
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Which are, in effect, cuts. You have to take into account inflation and the increased cost of medical treatment, which tends to outpace inflation.

    Tell any frontline NHS worker that cuts aren't happening and they'll laugh in your face.
    I was accounting for inflation; even taking a higher value of inflation its only a 2% cut. Apparently we can all afford to pay extra in taxes but the government can't manage to cut its spending by one part in fifty.

    Working class people have historically been very politically active. Granted, we are at a low ebb of working class activity, but its picking up. There were bedroom tax demos across the country yesterday.
    "Historically" being the key word there. Even then, it doesn't really do much good when the politicians only have to do better than their opponent to stay elected - and in some safe seats one can win without even trying.

    As for your comment about schools? Doesn't make any sense. What evidence do you have that competition would increase standards?
    You don't think giving parents more freedom of choice when it comes to picking schools - and giving those decisions more weight - wouldn't improve their quality?

    I didn't say they were.
    That was the implication of your class war comments. If many different members of the "class" behave in completely different ways and support completely different policies then it isn't a class war.

    Didn't say that either. You're gonna have to come up with something better than these pathetic strawmen.
    It isn't a straw man; you were claiming that the financial crisis was a part of a class war on behalf of the rich were you not? Or are you referring to some other class?
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    I was accounting for inflation; even taking a higher value of inflation its only a 2% cut. Apparently we can all afford to pay extra in taxes but the government can't manage to cut its spending by one part in fifty.
    Well if that's the case, then why are front line services being cut?

    (Original post by Nick100)
    "Historically" being the key word there. Even then, it doesn't really do much good when the politicians only have to do better than their opponent to stay elected - and in some safe seats one can win without even trying.
    What? I don't understand why you're on about politicians? You think politics is the preserve of politicians? So strikes and mass campaigns like the poll tax campaign aren't politics?

    (Original post by Nick100)
    You don't think giving parents more freedom of choice when it comes to picking schools - and giving those decisions more weight - wouldn't improve their quality?
    How are you going to make that workable? All I can see it doing is further entrenching class divisions, as parents who can afford it move to the areas with better schools. Which is what we have now.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    That was the implication of your class war comments. If many different members of the "class" behave in completely different ways and support completely different policies then it isn't a class war.
    No. Members of the same class can be in competition with each other. Working class people compete with each other over jobs, for example. Businesses compete with each other. This does not mean that they can't also work together. For example, strikes, solidarity actions and secondary picketing. Or an organisation like the CBI or IoD lobbying government.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    It isn't a straw man; you were claiming that the financial crisis was a part of a class war on behalf of the rich were you not? Or are you referring to some other class?
    First of all, I did not mention "the 1%", that's a useless way of looking at things IMO. Secondly, do you think the financial crisis was all about banks? What makes you think that?
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    What would have been the consequences of cash points running out of money and a big bank going down? A run on other banks do you think? How much would the compensation scheme have costed? Why would the Bank of England capitalise failed banks via QE?
    The Bank of England is lending billions to the government and banks and adding to inflation which is eroding the spending power of those in work - those on welfare are protected with increases in line with inflation while wage growth is more or less stagnant
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    (Original post by a729)
    The Bank of England is lending billions to the government and banks and adding to inflation which is eroding the spending power of those in work - those on welfare are protected with increases in line with inflation while wage growth is more or less stagnant
    Wow, its Roger Irrelevant.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Well if that's the case, then why are front line services being cut?
    The government says its because they're reforming the system to make it cost effective; I say its because their politicians trying to run a health service and are inept as hell.

    What? I don't understand why you're on about politicians? You think politics is the preserve of politicians? So strikes and mass campaigns like the poll tax campaign aren't politics?
    They are politics but as long as a politician does the bare minimum to elected they need do no more. If those campaigns worked so wonderfully there wouldn't be such a problem in education.

    How are you going to make that workable? All I can see it doing is further entrenching class divisions, as parents who can afford it move to the areas with better schools. Which is what we have now.
    Why would it entrench class divisions if people of all classes can move their children, and schools which attract the most parents get increased funding? Funding a school bus program to enable such competition for poorer students would be a much better investment than throwing money at some failure of a school.

    No. Members of the same class can be in competition with each other. Working class people compete with each other over jobs, for example. Businesses compete with each other. This does not mean that they can't also work together. For example, strikes, solidarity actions and secondary picketing. Or an organisation like the CBI or IoD lobbying government.
    But its not just competing; its adopting wildly different policies and one part of the class effectively cannibalizing another part.

    First of all, I did not mention "the 1%", that's a useless way of looking at things IMO. Secondly, do you think the financial crisis was all about banks? What makes you think that?
    Use the top 20% then and the argument still stands, albeit people move in and out of that group at a slower rate. The financial crisis was about the relationship between government and private banks; I think that because the former group controlled monetary policy while some of the latter group received a lot money following the crisis.
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    (Original post by Nick100)
    The government says its because they're reforming the system to make it cost effective; I say its because their politicians trying to run a health service and are inept as hell.
    The funding decisions to specific services are not made by politicians.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    They are politics but as long as a politician does the bare minimum to elected they need do no more.
    Yeah, I agree. Not sure of the relevance to my point though.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    If those campaigns worked so wonderfully there wouldn't be such a problem in education.
    Another seeming non-sequiter!

    (Original post by Nick100)
    Why would it entrench class divisions if people of all classes can move their children, and schools which attract the most parents get increased funding? Funding a school bus program to enable such competition for poorer students would be a much better investment than throwing money at some failure of a school.
    So bussing kids around the city is your solution? Rather than just making sure that all schools operate to the same standard? Bizarre.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    But its not just competing; its adopting wildly different policies and one part of the class effectively cannibalizing another part.
    What? Explain. You appear to be responding to a competely different post to the one I made.

    (Original post by Nick100)
    Use the top 20% then and the argument still stands, albeit people move in and out of that group at a slower rate. The financial crisis was about the relationship between government and private banks; I think that because the former group controlled monetary policy while some of the latter group received a lot money following the crisis.

    Again, what? I'm really confused as to what on earth you're on about! The financial crisis was in response to the falling rate of profit and a crisis in underconsumption, and the financialisation of the economy over the past 30 years.

    You appear to be a free market crank. Am I right?
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    What would have been the consequences of cash points running out of money and a big bank going down? A run on other banks do you think? How much would the compensation scheme have costed? Why would the Bank of England capitalise failed banks via QE?
    Anticipation is key - cash machines wouldn't necessarily have to run out of money if the government had anticipated a big bank going down and ensured the funds from the compensation scheme were there to be accessed.

    In any event, they should only have staggered any (small) bailout i.e. keep the bank going until everyone had had a chance to move to another bank with their guaranteed funds.

    the BoE wouldn't have capitalised failed banks through QE - they should have let them go. Rather you print money and give it to people, rather than the banks
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    (Original post by Scots King)
    Anticipation is key - cash machines wouldn't necessarily have to run out of money if the government had anticipated a big bank going down and ensured the funds from the compensation scheme were there to be accessed.
    We're talking about what actually happened.

    (Original post by Scots King)
    In any event, they should only have staggered any (small) bailout i.e. keep the bank going until everyone had had a chance to move to another bank with their guaranteed funds.
    Its already been pointed out that the guarantee scheme only guarantees minimal amounts.

    (Original post by Scots King)
    the BoE wouldn't have capitalised failed banks through QE - they should have let them go. Rather you print money and give it to people, rather than the banks
    Yes, printing money. That has a history of ending well, ay.
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    When your country is that small, people must live together peacefully. That tends to push towards conformity.

    Plus, you have to look at their media, a reproduction of our media. Most of it is just BS like in America, too. To watch most news networks, you could draw some surprising conclusions about us. Isn't the least bit factual, but it's what they want to depict.

    also maybe it is a historical thing. Britain is really the birth place of what we now know as the modern industrialised state. Initially, workers were treated very poorly, and it was amongst this mass of poorly paid and treated workers that the first unions and workers parties formed.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    The funding decisions to specific services are not made by politicians.
    Its politicians driving the reforms.

    Yeah, I agree. Not sure of the relevance to my point though.

    Another seeming non-sequiter!
    Your that guy who needs every damn thing spelled out to you right? The point is that the involvement of the poor in politics is much less than that of the middle and upper class, and that where the poor do get involved education tends to be a secondary issue and hence gets ignored by their politicians.

    So bussing kids around the city is your solution? Rather than just making sure that all schools operate to the same standard? Bizarre.
    Because its that easy right? If we just tell the schools to do their jobs they will! We don't need any incentives; teachers are such kind-hearted angels with none of the flaws that we mere mortals have.

    To spell it out for you, busing them around a city is done to facilitate competition between schools; this is both cheaper and more effective than throwing money at a failing school and hoping that it gets better, and it leads to expansion of successful schools.

    What? Explain. You appear to be responding to a competely different post to the one I made.
    You said that members of a class compete with eachother. Did you know that you can read the post I'm responding to in the quote bubble?

    Again, what? I'm really confused as to what on earth you're on about! The financial crisis was in response to the falling rate of profit and a crisis in underconsumption, and the financialisation of the economy over the past 30 years.
    What on Earth do you think the falling rate of profit came from? There was a massive housing bubble - which is overconsumption by the way because it means demand was artificially raised through the roof - which attracted a lot of investment resulting in continually diminishing returns. The bubble was caused by an expansion of credit as well as policies to encourage the buying of houses. And manufacturing output was at a record high immediately before the financial crisis, as was consumption.

    You appear to be a free market crank. Am I right?
    You're claiming there's a class war and that the global financial crisis was caused by a "crisis in underconsumption" while global consumption was at an all time high; "crank" is certainly relative here.
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    (Original post by Harrow.7)
    Socialism, if done by the book, is the greatest system in the world...unfortunately, it has been abused and tarnished by the USSR, N Korea etc...
    No offence but i find this excuse incredibly stupid

    It really is like saying fascist states are tarnished by Hitler.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Wow, its Roger Irrelevant.
    Wow it's Neil Kinnock
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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    False delusion of reality.

    Sadly true!
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    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    A lot of people would argue the USSR wasn't truly socialist.
    Hmm but it could be argued that socialism and communism are both cut from the same dirty cloth!
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    (Original post by Bipolarb3ar)
    We are told from an early age that if you dont lean to the left then you are a racist bigot
    Sadly true- but the growing popularity of UKIP is hopeful
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    (Original post by Jordan-James)
    No offence but i find this excuse incredibly stupid

    It really is like saying fascist states are tarnished by Hitler.
    Lefties are known for hypocrisy and foolishness lool
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    People lean to the left due to a lack of understanding in economics and warped morals.

    How the left is still seen as a nice premise still baffles me, given its despotic and murderous tendencies.

    The only saving grace of the left is that it has failed on such a scale that it reminds everyone (sane) not to embrace it.
 
 
 
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