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Is war ever justified? watch

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    I have a debate on thursday in which I am proposing that there is never a justification for war. Which is just "great" for me because I quite often think there is. However I want opinions from both sides as I can use the anti-war ones and be prepared for the pro-war.

    So far I have:
    -The Iraq war, generally a bad thing on all fronts exept for the whole ousting Saddam thing.
    -People die in wars --> war=bad
    -Wars cost money, money that could be spent on hospitals, schools etc.
    -Wars have an aftermath that can often be worse than the wars themselves.

    Any thing else? Also pro-war arguments, I have a few but I'm sure there are more.
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    pro: wars spread if they are not ended quickly (e.g. WW2)
    anti: but by involving ourselves we are just helping them spread

    pro: they threaten our country, could get us within 40 mins etc.
    anti: that was the argument for the cold war, and it resulted in the building up of armaments, international friction etc.
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    Well here are some pro-war examples that helped to improve the world:

    WWI created better transport methods
    WWII created many new laws, technologies, treaties and medicines.
    Cold war created, internet, satellite TV, James bond movies ,space race and exploration and better computers.
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    World War two is probably the best example of a completely justified war. As the great philosopher Eddie Izzard once said, "war is justified when it can put an end to an organised shithead."

    Actually that's not a precise quote, but it means the same thing.
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    (Original post by Hipocrit)
    I have a debate on thursday in which I am proposing that there is never a justification for war. Which is just "great" for me because I quite often think there is. However I want opinions from both sides as I can use the anti-war ones and be prepared for the pro-war.

    So far I have:
    -The Iraq war, generally a bad thing on all fronts exept for the whole ousting Saddam thing.
    -People die in wars --> war=bad
    -Wars cost money, money that could be spent on hospitals, schools etc.
    -Wars have an aftermath that can often be worse than the wars themselves.

    Any thing else? Also pro-war arguments, I have a few but I'm sure there are more.

    Well, I have some pro war ones:

    1: Preemptive strikes. Sometimes you have little choice but to go to war. Considder as an example Israels situation in 1967. Technically they started the war, but had they not they would have been crushed by invading forces.

    2: Ending crimes against humanity. Considder cambodja (Dont know if the spelling is correct). Had vietnam not invaded the genecide may have continued far longer. Also, the US and Russian joint invasion of Europe in WW2 put an end to Hitlers regime and liberated those Jews who were to be extinguished in concentration camps (Among them my grandfather).

    3: Toppling dictators. A war could liberate a country from a dictator or unbeneficial path of development.
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    but then again, you have vietnam
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    yes, war can be justified. Look at what japan did to the US at pearl harbor? If thats not justified i dont know what is. Were we just supposed to sit here and do nothing after losung thousands of men?
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    (Original post by PadFoot90)
    yes, war can be justified. Look at what japan did to the US at pearl harbor? If thats not justified i dont know what is. Were we just supposed to sit here and do nothing after losung thousands of men?
    That's a different sort of war, the US was of course attacked - that is allowed via the UN.
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    (Original post by jammyd)
    That's a different sort of war, the US was of course attacked - that is allowed via the UN.
    what kind of war r we talking about?
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    anything can be justified if you have the determination to find arguments - people may not agree, but you can justify your actions.
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    (Original post by rednirt)
    anything can be justified if you have the determination to find arguments - people may not agree, but you can justify your actions.
    well said
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    We all have the right for self defence. It is morally correct to defend yourself and your family. The same can be said on a larger scale. Just like how the Germans wanted to take over europe or how the Arabs want to kill the Jews in Israel, self defence is not a moral issue but a positive reaction to force.



    (Original post by Hipocrit)
    I have a debate on thursday in which I am proposing that there is never a justification for war. Which is just "great" for me because I quite often think there is. However I want opinions from both sides as I can use the anti-war ones and be prepared for the pro-war.

    So far I have:
    -The Iraq war, generally a bad thing on all fronts exept for the whole ousting Saddam thing.
    -People die in wars --> war=bad
    -Wars cost money, money that could be spent on hospitals, schools etc.
    -Wars have an aftermath that can often be worse than the wars themselves.

    Any thing else? Also pro-war arguments, I have a few but I'm sure there are more.
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    (Original post by jdavis)
    We all have the right for self defence. It is morally correct to defend yourself and your family. The same can be said on a larger scale. Just like how the Germans wanted to take over europe or how the Arabs want to kill the Jews in Israel, self defence is not a moral issue but a positive reaction to force.
    Yeah. I am going to conede self defence and say that only starting a war is never justified. However, Gahndi could easily have started a revolution but instead used passive resistance, but India was already occupied, its different if you are actually being invaded.
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    Behaving in self defence is not just about waiting for the enemy to attack. If you know you life or families life is in dangour by an oncomming enemy then that is also concidered self defence.

    In 1967 for example, Iraq, syria, jordan and egypt all placed their troops on Israels borders ready to attack. The small but effective israeli army had to take the first strike if they had any change to survive this huge threat.

    you could also argue that britain took the first strike against nazi germany.

    But I do agree, going out there just to kill and capture land for selfish and immoral gain is wrong. (for example Iraq invading Kaiwait)

    (Original post by Hipocrit)
    Yeah. I am going to conede self defence and say that only starting a war is never justified. However, Gahndi could easily have started a revolution but instead used passive resistance, but India was already occupied, its different if you are actually being invaded.
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    This is known as the 'just war theory' and i think it was another augustine thing, but i may be very wrong... anyway, despite this it still seems very relevant and people at my college do coursework using these points with reference to wars past n present...

    anyway, the theory is that a war is justified if ALL of these conditions are met:

    1. The war must be waged by a proper authority
    2. There must be a just cause
    3. Proper means must be used (ie the use of force must be proportional/appropriate to the situation)
    4. The fight must have a right intention such as the overcoming of an evil
    5. War must be the last resort
    6. The good achieved in war must outweigh the bad that led to war
    7. There must be a reasonable chance of success

    whilst there are obviously problems with this (like, um, it is sometimes hard to differentiate between no. 2 and 4), and a lot of the others are open to opinion (such as 3 - was the atom bomb justified, for example?), and number 6 is tough to see without hindsight, this theory is still, i believe, pretty valid.

    hmm, and does anyone notice number 1? i wonder if any US government warmongers realise that this is the UN??? duh.......
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    I could really use some anti war ones. They're easy enought to think of but the stouble is I have to fill 7 mins with them.
    -Wars are self perpetuating e.g all those bombs that fell on Afghanistan and Iraq just created more future Bin Ladens. Also Germany was so crippled by legislation after WW1 that people were crying out for a leader who promised retribution.
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    Anti - war : Waste of resources
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    (Original post by androidkiller)
    Anti - war : Waste of resources
    That's why the US is having a war. They have created an enemy for themselves, because after the cold war, the US had all of the gadgetry that Reagan organised and loads of soldiers - people to keep in jobs. War justifies having a huge defence budget - Bush proposed $400bn.
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    ANTI: according to mr. white no country has the right to interfere with the working of another government so long as that government is not a threat to other countries.
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    War should be avoided at all costs but sometimes you have to fight back. Just look at WW2. What would have happened if we didn't go to war????
 
 
 
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