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    (Original post by a729)
    We don't need to be in the EU or fund it
    There is the EEA , UN and WTO

    We are in a trade deficit so they have more to lose than us
    Leaving the EU would most likely take us out of the EEA as the law takes into account that Britain is an EU member state.

    I don't see any real advantage coming from the UN, there would be no obligation to trade with us or not to introduce protectionist policies on our exported goods which would most likely happen.

    The WTO would only help us in trying to arrange trade deals, again there are no obligations for other countries to agree. Some have already said they would refuse a deal.

    You're right, we do export £44billion less into the EU than it exports back to us. However, the EU is made up of member states that each export to us a fraction of £203billion that the EU as a whole export to us. Each state would not be hit as hard as Britain would be in losing out of £159billion worth of trade as a single country.


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    (Original post by Harry Callahan)
    Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's EU membership; he reneged due to pressure from senior European figures. He also travelled to Brussels to get a better deal for Britain; what he actually did was ensure we'll be paying more in future.

    As for point three, it's stipulated in the Lisbon Treaty that the EU must set up a free-trade agreement with any country leaving the EU.
    Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's EU membership, there will be a referendum on Britain's EU membership in the next parliament. He knew that having an immediate referendum would take us out of the EU as people clearly don't understand the benefits and drawbacks enough to make the correct decision.

    People are influenced by the media's negative look on the EU. They are outraged by the loss of identity or sovereignty. They are outraged by being told how to live their lives and follow new laws by made by people who may never have been to Britain. This is such a 2D view and is why Cameron made the correct decision to hold the referendum in the next parliament. The people need to be properly educated about the EU.

    As for your point on the Lisbon Treaty, I have found no reference to this section and have never heard of it. If you could post a link to prove your point it would be great.
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    (Original post by benevansben)
    Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's EU membership, there will be a referendum on Britain's EU membership in the next parliament. He knew that having an immediate referendum would take us out of the EU as people clearly don't understand the benefits and drawbacks enough to make the correct decision.

    People are influenced by the media's negative look on the EU. They are outraged by the loss of identity or sovereignty. They are outraged by being told how to live their lives and follow new laws by made by people who may never have been to Britain. This is such a 2D view and is why Cameron made the correct decision to hold the referendum in the next parliament. The people need to be properly educated about the EU.

    As for your point on the Lisbon Treaty, I have found no reference to this section and have never heard of it. If you could post a link to prove your point it would be great.
    His promise is another case of jam tomorrow. He's promised much and failed to deliver. If he was serious about his promise, he'd call a referendum now, rather than in five years' time.

    They're outraged for good reason. Not only is it an economic disaster zone, but we also have laws and regulation thrust upon us, we can't control our borders, we can't negotiate our own trade deals easily while in the EU, our public services and infrastructure is placed under great strain from waves of unnecessary immigration. The list goes on and on. People can see these problems on a day-to-day basis, and they certainly don't need educating by left-wing propagandists on why we should remain in the EU. The question is simple: Should we be a self-governing, autonomous nation or not?

    Seeing as you don't believe me, here's a link to the Lisbon Treaty stipulations: http://www.globalbritain.org/BNN/BN61.pdf
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    (Original post by benevansben)
    Cameron promised a referendum on Britain's EU membership, there will be a referendum on Britain's EU membership in the next parliament. He knew that having an immediate referendum would take us out of the EU as people clearly don't understand the benefits and drawbacks enough to make the correct decision.

    People are influenced by the media's negative look on the EU. They are outraged by the loss of identity or sovereignty. They are outraged by being told how to live their lives and follow new laws by made by people who may never have been to Britain. This is such a 2D view and is why Cameron made the correct decision to hold the referendum in the next parliament. The people need to be properly educated about the EU.

    As for your point on the Lisbon Treaty, I have found no reference to this section and have never heard of it. If you could post a link to prove your point it would be great.
    The reasoning for the timing is actually much simpler. He can't have it this parliament because the Lib Dems won't back it.
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    (Original post by benevansben)


    Leaving the EU would most likely take us out of the EEA as the law takes into account that Britain is an EU member state.

    I don't see any real advantage coming from the UN, there would be no obligation to trade with us or not to introduce protectionist policies on our exported goods which would most likely happen.

    The WTO would only help us in trying to arrange trade deals, again there are no obligations for other countries to agree. Some have already said they would refuse a deal.

    You're right, we do export £44billion less into the EU than it exports back to us. However, the EU is made up of member states that each export to us a fraction of £203billion that the EU as a whole export to us. Each state would not be hit as hard as Britain would be in losing out of £159billion worth of trade as a single country.


    Say what Norway and Switzerland are free of the burden of the EU anyhow we would be fine whatever happens -they need is more than we need them

    The EU is not a country lol

    That's scaremongering - they wouldn't stop trading with us just like they wouldn't stop trading with Germany if it ever left!
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    (Original post by Harry Callahan)
    His promise is another case of jam tomorrow. He's promised much and failed to deliver. If he was serious about his promise, he'd call a referendum now, rather than in five years' time.

    They're outraged for good reason. Not only is it an economic disaster zone, but we also have laws and regulation thrust upon us, we can't control our borders, we can't negotiate our own trade deals easily while in the EU, our public services and infrastructure is placed under great strain from waves of unnecessary immigration. The list goes on and on. People can see these problems on a day-to-day basis, and they certainly don't need educating by left-wing propagandists on why we should remain in the EU. The question is simple: Should we be a self-governing, autonomous nation or not?

    Seeing as you don't believe me, here's a link to the Lisbon Treaty stipulations: http://www.globalbritain.org/BNN/BN61.pdf
    Then I apologise about the Lisbon Treaty. I have already explained why Cameron would not call a referendum now and someone else has reminded me that the LibDems would not back it. Cameron isn't stupid enough to risk the economic fortunes of the country and risk tearing the coalition apart just to satisfy some far-right members of his party. Just for the record, I am in no way left-wing. I just realise the benefits the EU brings. I'm all for changing our position within the EU and repatriating some powers from Brussels but I'd rather be in than out.


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    (Original post by a729)
    Say what Norway and Switzerland are free of the burden of the EU anyhow we would be fine whatever happens -they need is more than we need them

    The EU is not a country lol

    That's scaremongering - they wouldn't stop trading with us just like they wouldn't stop trading with Germany if it ever left!
    I never said the EU was a country. Neither did I explicitly say that they would stop trading with us altogether. I stand by my earlier protectionism point though. It is a fact however, that we would lose trade.


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    (Original post by benevansben)
    I never said the EU was a country. Neither did I explicitly say that they would stop trading with us altogether. I stand by my earlier protectionism point though. It is a fact however, that we would lose trade.


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    (Original post by benevansben)


    Leaving the EU would most likely take us out of the EEA as the law takes into account that Britain is an EU member state.

    I don't see any real advantage coming from the UN, there would be no obligation to trade with us or not to introduce protectionist policies on our exported goods which would most likely happen.

    The WTO would only help us in trying to arrange trade deals, again there are no obligations for other countries to agree. Some have already said they would refuse a deal.

    You're right, we do export £44billion less into the EU than it exports back to us. However, the EU is made up of member states that each export to us a fraction of £203billion that the EU as a whole export to us. Each state would not be hit as hard as Britain would be in losing out of £159billion worth of trade as a single country. .


    You did say imply that , at the very least!

    Even if we did we would still better of considering the £48 million a day direst cost and add the money saved by ridding excess regulation
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    (Original post by a729)
    You did say imply that , at the very least!

    Even if we did we would still better of considering the £48 million a day direst cost and add the money saved by ridding excess regulation
    But you would'nt save that much.

    Do you expect the Welsh and Scottish to slash their budgets because in the Highlands and Wales the EU give them a lot of money? Are you foolish enough to think that no EU regulation is good and that we wouldn't institute it ourselves?

    Your clearly not stupid and there may be savings in direct costs to be made but it won't be anywhere near the amount you think it will be.
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    (Original post by a729)
    You did say imply that , at the very least!

    Even if we did we would still better of considering the £48 million a day direst cost and add the money saved by ridding excess regulation
    That's just a figure I found to highlight the possible loss of trade. It's late so let's just agree to disagree, this thread was originally only about immigration.


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    (Original post by uktotalgamer)
    I'm well aware of this, but that doesn't change my previous point. Immigrants wouldn't be needed if our natives would take the jobs. But they won't.
    What makes you think the natives won't take the jobs?

    I think you're mistaken. Everybody is trying.



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    (Original post by benevansben)
    That's just a figure I found to highlight the possible loss of trade. It's late so let's just agree to disagree, this thread was originally only about immigration.


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    hmm but the EU is relevant to immigration

    Especially from 2014!
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    But you would'nt save that much.

    Do you expect the Welsh and Scottish to slash their budgets because in the Highlands and Wales the EU give them a lot of money? Are you foolish enough to think that no EU regulation is good and that we wouldn't institute it ourselves?

    Your clearly not stupid and there may be savings in direct costs to be made but it won't be anywhere near the amount you think it will be.
    Some EU regulation is bad- the fact is imposed from abroad contributes to the feeling of injustice- after the EU doesn't have to worry about being voted out in 5 years like each UK government has to

    Also the EU want to fine London for breaching pollution limits- this is an outrage
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    (Original post by a729)
    Some EU regulation is bad- the fact is imposed from abroad contributes to the feeling of injustice- after the EU doesn't have to worry about being voted out in 5 years like each UK government has to

    Also the EU want to fine London for breaching pollution limits- this is an outrage
    Of course some of it is (so is some made in Westminster) but my point is that unjust or not your not going to pull out and just scrap all EU law, as a government of any colour you would analyse each piece of legislation and then keep the good and get rid of the bad (with something like 56 policy areas i suspect there's plenty of good).

    Don't blame the EU for that, blame Labour. They were the ones who were instrumental in creating pollution targets and signed up. On the flip side though i think it's criminal that London in the 21st century issued a health warning in April 2011 so we fully deserve a penalty (morally at least).

    A perfect example is the fruit size regulation which the Daily Mail spun as being bad, in actuality big business and suppliers lobbied for the law because for the suppliers if they know the exact size of the box and the exact size of the fruit it's an easy calculation as to how many your supplying thus speeding up distribution and saving on potential labour (counting and weighing the fruit ect..) whilst for big business, customers like attractive food and so it sells better. The only people the law is bad for are small suppliers who may depend on 1 supermarket contract and are thus ruined by a bad crop.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Of course some of it is (so is some made in Westminster) but my point is that unjust or not your not going to pull out and just scrap all EU law, as a government of any colour you would analyse each piece of legislation and then keep the good and get rid of the bad (with something like 56 policy areas i suspect there's plenty of good).

    Don't blame the EU for that, blame Labour. They were the ones who were instrumental in creating pollution targets and signed up. On the flip side though i think it's criminal that London in the 21st century issued a health warning in April 2011 so we fully deserve a penalty (morally at least).

    A perfect example is the fruit size regulation which the Daily Mail spun as being bad, in actuality big business and suppliers lobbied for the law because for the suppliers if they know the exact size of the box and the exact size of the fruit it's an easy calculation as to how many your supplying thus speeding up distribution and saving on potential labour (counting and weighing the fruit ect..) whilst for big business, customers like attractive food and so it sells better. The only people the law is bad for are small suppliers who may depend on 1 supermarket contract and are thus ruined by a bad crop.
    If you happy for us to be fined by a foreign power-than you pay it!

    It increase waste-it's big businesses collaborating with the EU to stifle the SME which provide the majority of employment in the UK
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    (Original post by benevansben)
    Then I apologise about the Lisbon Treaty. I have already explained why Cameron would not call a referendum now and someone else has reminded me that the LibDems would not back it. Cameron isn't stupid enough to risk the economic fortunes of the country and risk tearing the coalition apart just to satisfy some far-right members of his party. Just for the record, I am in no way left-wing. I just realise the benefits the EU brings. I'm all for changing our position within the EU and repatriating some powers from Brussels but I'd rather be in than out.


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    None of the benefits it brings couldn't be obtained outside the union, therefore the benefits aren't really benefits. The fact is, we shouldn't be allowing those in Brussels to pass legislation through British courts and restrict us from controlling our borders.

    There's no negotiation to be done.
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Because you said race doesn't matter.

    Yes, yes it does.
    Please explain how it is relevant?

    You do realise that a large majority of immigrants are White, right? His Majesty Prince Philip was an immigrant - you could almost call him an asylum seeker, fleeing war and potential assassination. :rolleyes: Did you also know the Mayor of London is of direct Turkish origin? His great-grandfather fled to England - you could also almost call him an asylum seeker, fleeing destabilisation and whatnot.

    Pray tell, what has skin tone to do with it?
 
 
 
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