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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I also didn't like his analysis of her points about the 'damsel in distress' trope. He tries to compare it to real life situations and misconstrues her point to suggest she thinks we shouldn't help people who are in danger. I don't feel it's the actions of the characters that she is criticising, as such, but their portrayal. Needlessly to say when a woman is kidnapped in real life she has thoughts and feelings and a personality; she is a real human being. The woman in the game has none of these things. She is nothing more than a MacGuffin. She could be replaced with a briefcase full of money, a harddrive full of state secrets, or a really tasty sandwich. It doesn't matter as long as it's something the male characters feel is worth chasing after. Her only 'character traits' and indeed her only reason for existing are her helplessness and the fact that she is an object of desire for the protagonists. This is what Anita means when she talks about objectification.

    And that's where I got bored and stopped watching.
    However Anita used ones games. I'm talking about games which skimped out on the story in exchange for gameplay. That's why in Mario Bros and double dragon, you rescue the damsel as it was an extremely simple storyline to catch on to. Its so basic it barely needs any detail.

    Even final fantasy storylines (for the nes) and even most dragon quest games storylines were extremely simplistic. ( In this instance, going from town to town sorting problems which are a result of some evil entity, while getting stronger).

    Complaining about damsel I. Distress storylines in games where people were technically unable to do anything complex easily is extremely asinine. I understand that Mario games and a host of other long running series still do the whole damsel in distress storyline, but that is only homage to the original games. Iirc the fact that bowser keeps kidnapping princess peach is even a big joke now.

    Moreover in the same respect you can replace the damsel with a nice old sammich also works both ways. Taking double dragon for instance, you could replace the brothers with two robots and make the opening stage say a garage, or a laboratory. You could replace Mario with Sir Arthur and it would still work.


    In more modern games which use the trope, they attach a reason as to why said woman is important. 'Because she is the child of the full moon' 'because she is your wife' 'because her death could trigger the start of a war' 'because her crying releases some monster'. They attach a personality to the damsel now, and why? Because they are now able to. Even in dragon quest ix where in one section you save the princess, you see her personality, interact with her before she is kidnapped. Unlike old games where you wouldn't find out why someone was kidnapped unless you read the manual
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    (Original post by bottled)
    However Anita used ones games. I'm talking about games which skimped out on the story in exchange for gameplay. That's why in Mario Bros and double dragon, you rescue the damsel as it was an extremely simple storyline to catch on to. Its so basic it barely needs any detail.

    Even final fantasy storylines (for the nes) and even most dragon quest games storylines were extremely simplistic. ( In this instance, going from town to town sorting problems which are a result of some evil entity, while getting stronger).

    Complaining about damsel I. Distress storylines in games where people were technically unable to do anything complex easily is extremely asinine. I understand that Mario games and a host of other long running series still do the whole damsel in distress storyline, but that is only homage to the original games. Iirc the fact that bowser keeps kidnapping princess peach is even a big joke now.

    Moreover in the same respect you can replace the damsel with a nice old sammich also works both ways. Taking double dragon for instance, you could replace the brothers with two robots and make the opening stage say a garage, or a laboratory. You could replace Mario with Sir Arthur and it would still work.
    This is true to some extent, but you have to consider the portrayal of the characters and the roles they perform. Sure the brothers could be giant squids and Mario could be an anthropomorphic hot air balloon, but they would still actually be characters. They would still be the brave, daring heroes of the story. The whole point of a McGuffin is that it doesn't really do anything. It's just an object (key word) of contention between hero and villain and that is what this female character is reduced to. As for it being a symptom of technological constraint, ehh it's an interesting point but doesn't negate the actual fact of their portrayal, and besides, needless to say the damsel trope predates video games by thousands of years. If it can be considered problematic in literature I think it can still be considered problematic if game designers make the choice to transfer it to their medium. It all depends on what you consider to be 'problematic', I guess.
    In more modern games which use the trope, they attach a reason as to why said woman is important. 'Because she is the child of the full moon' 'because she is your wife' 'because her death could trigger the start of a war' 'because her crying releases some monster'. They attach a personality to the damsel now, and why? Because they are now able to. Even in dragon quest ix where in one section you save the princess, you see her personality, interact with her before she is kidnapped. Unlike old games where you wouldn't find out why someone was kidnapped unless you read the manual
    I think the point still works, though. Objects can also have meaning. "This disc of nuclear launch codes could start a war" "this amulet is a sacred moon amulet and, like, yeah go get it or whatever" "this watch belonged to your father and is like super sentimental" "this wand releases a monster when brought to the sacred cave of Arak'Thul'Kablammo". I admit I'm not much of a gamer so I don't know if you're referencing real games here, and if you are I'm not sure exactly what roles the female characters play, but it seems to me the damsel is almost necessarily passive and helpless.
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    (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)

    I’m not “discussing her conduct elsewhere”. I'm choosing to expose how the arguments used in her video are irrelevant as she has personally illustrated that regardless what happens vis-à-vis the problems exposed in her video, she will be unsatisfied. She spends a 20 minute video telling us how all female characters must be ‘strong’ and that deviation from that is misogynist – but then elsewhere claims that even if a female character was ‘strong’ it’s still symptomatic of the problems she perceives in the first place. It’s lose-lose, there is no pleasing her. The notion that this is somehow irrelevant is like saying “that 47% thing is totally irrelevant to Romney’s economic policy because it happened elsewhere and is unfair to bring up”. What utter nonsense you've concocted.
    The passage you quoted is from the abstract to her master's thesis and isn't supposed to stand alone as a point so I don't think it's fair to judge it without actually reading her arguments. I don't really see the contradiction, either. She's saying that positive characteristics that are generally considered by our society to be 'feminine' are rarely found in video game characters. It is possible to have a female character who is neither a helpless damsel nor what is essentially a male character in a woman's body.
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    Seriously. The economy is in crisis, people are struggling throughout eurozone, Britain is about to experience yet another invasion from eastern europe etc.

    Lets talk about women in the gaming industry.
    It's so not absolutely irrelevant.
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    This is making me ****ing rage. I used to be an avid gamer, and still frequently play games [although nowhere near the amount I used to] and I want politics, ESPECIALLY feminism to stay out of this. I don't give a **** how females are portrayed in video games, I enjoy video games how they are [Well, the gaming industry has been going downhill but it's still decent] and I don't want any outside intervention. Hopefully game developers do something about this.

    Even more the reason to hate feminism.

    Likewise I don't give a **** how men are portrayed in Girls TV shows or anything of that like.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I think the point still works, though. Objects can also have meaning. "This disc of nuclear launch codes could start a war" "this amulet is a sacred moon amulet and, like, yeah go get it or whatever" "this watch belonged to your father and is like super sentimental" "this wand releases a monster when brought to the sacred cave of Arak'Thul'Kablammo". I admit I'm not much of a gamer so I don't know if you're referencing real games here, and if you are I'm not sure exactly what roles the female characters play, but it seems to me the damsel is almost necessarily passive and helpless.
    i see what you mean in your post, however a point which i neglected to mention (i think) is that as well as meaning, unlike objects they are given personalities. I'm going to use an anime as an example cause i'm lazy atm.

    Let's take bleach. Just to put it into perspective, Ichigo (the lead) spends one season attempting to rescue a fellow shinigami who was his partner or something i forgot. after a few episodes, due to helping ichigo, she is captured and is to be executed pretty soon, and thus ichigo with the help of some friends attempt to rescue her blah blah blah.

    back on point, most games (which aren't using an old storyline for the sake of it) not only place importance in the damsel, but they also tend to give the damsel a reason to be saved, make her useful, and give her a good, likeable personality. Such a trend echoes in plenty of games, animes and cartoons nowadays like Tales of Vesperia, Symphonia etc etc.



    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    The passage you quoted is from the abstract to her master's thesis and isn't supposed to stand alone as a point so I don't think it's fair to judge it without actually reading her arguments. I don't really see the contradiction, either. She's saying that positive characteristics that are generally considered by our society to be 'feminine' are rarely found in video game characters. It is possible to have a female character who is neither a helpless damsel nor what is essentially a male character in a woman's body.

    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6gLmcS3-NI
    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpFk5F-S_hI

    And i think he's talking about this series of videos which also look into her past videos as well as her master thesis
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    (Original post by dartanoir)
    That is not feminism! Not even close.
    Not all of us are misinformed radical misandrists you know But it just so happens that those who are, are the loudest and bring a bad name to the rest of us.
    But from your OP:

    As a fellow feminist I have a couple of major issues with her doing this.
    So she is a feminist, but what she's doing isn't in line with feminism? If you're so sure it's miles away from feminism you should say so in your OP, not later on when someone calls it out. I've said this to others, unless you denounce people who claim to be feminists doing stuff in the name of feminism, then they're just as entitled to wave the feminist flag as you, and people are entitled to criticise all those who rally under the same flag.

    In response to your OP, the damsel in distress thing came from it being mostly boys, of whom most are heterosexual) playing computer games, and what better incentive than have your love interest's life on the line? You get the protagonist being a heterosexual male trying to rescue his female love interest in order to match up with society. Plus, you wouldn't really want to dissuade a guy from trying to save his girlfriend's/wife's/other's life if he was the only one capable, right? So yes, I think this is a non-issue, it's reflective of society and consumer's interests - if girls liked playing games where they rescued Prince Harry from the clutches of evil Lady Voldemort (let's make the typically male boss female too), then that type of thing would crop up.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    Eh? What is there to understand? They're losers with nothing else in their life gather together but to cackle about the nasty
    stuff they've posted to people who they don't like.
    My point is that they are a very vocal minority. The death/rape threats are done "for the lulz", and although their dislike for her is very much real, I don't think there is any chance at all they would actually consider violence against her. You are acting as if there has been a genuine misogynistic backlash against her, when in fact it's edgy teenagers and basement dwelling neckbeards who take absolutely nothing seriously.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    This is making me ****ing rage. I used to be an avid gamer, and still frequently play games [although nowhere near the amount I used to] and I want politics, ESPECIALLY feminism to stay out of this. I don't give a **** how females are portrayed in video games, I enjoy video games how they are [Well, the gaming industry has been going downhill but it's still decent] and I don't want any outside intervention. Hopefully game developers do something about this.

    Even more the reason to hate feminism.

    Likewise I don't give a **** how men are portrayed in Girls TV shows or anything of that like.
    Cept without politics a lot of the major games would be pretty ****.

    See: bioshock, Mass effect etc.
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    (Original post by Carecup)
    Cept without politics a lot of the major games would be pretty ****.

    See: bioshock, Mass effect etc.
    Wut?

    Making sense, not even ONCE.

    I'm tired of feminists butting in things which are dominated by men and things in which other women have no interest with. Games are basically played and made by entirely men. I don't like a feminist telling my game developers what to do. I want developers to listen to their consumers as opposed to an ideological nut. This also happens in many other areas such as the army, boy scouts [in America, was dominated by boys, girls had no interest, now it's basically 99% girls, forced by feminists and hardly any boys], sports, firemen [Yes, Firemen not firefighter], police [In regards to standards being dropped just to accommodate women smh.] etc.

    It's almost as if women can't bare to see men having their own space. Men don't seem to care about women and what happens in their spaces, so I think many men would also like women to keep out of their business.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    Wut?

    Making sense, not even ONCE.

    I'm tired of feminists butting in things which are dominated by men and things in which other women have no interest with. Games are basically played and made by entirely men. I don't like a feminist telling my game developers what to do. I want developers to listen to their consumers as opposed to an ideological nut. This also happens in many other areas such as the army, boy scouts [in America, was dominated by boys, girls had no interest, now it's basically 99% girls, forced by feminists and hardly any boys], sports, firemen [Yes, Firemen not firefighter], police etc.

    It's almost as if women can't bare to see men having their own space. Men don't seem to care about women and what happens in their spaces, so I think many men would also like women to keep out of their business.
    :unimpressed: Yeah, it's not like the army, sports, fire service or police have any relevance to women, is it?

    Seriously, there are plenty of women who have seen these services in action as children and been inspired to join, or have become interested in it after some research or whatever. It is disturbing that you think those things are 'men's spaces'. We're all affected by the things they do, so why should they be dominated by men?

    In regard to the topic - games developers are under no obligation to pay attention to her criticisms. But if they want to expand their market share, it would be good business sense to not reduce 50% of their potential audience to sexual objects.
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    (Original post by Ultimate1)
    Wut?

    Making sense, not even ONCE.

    I'm tired of feminists butting in things which are dominated by men and things in which other women have no interest with. Games are basically played and made by entirely men. I don't like a feminist telling my game developers what to do. I want developers to listen to their consumers as opposed to an ideological nut. This also happens in many other areas such as the army, boy scouts [in America, was dominated by boys, girls had no interest, now it's basically 99% girls, forced by feminists and hardly any boys], sports, firemen [Yes, Firemen not firefighter], police [In regards to standards being dropped just to accommodate women smh.] etc.

    It's almost as if women can't bare to see men having their own space. Men don't seem to care about women and what happens in their spaces, so I think many men would also like women to keep out of their business.
    Question. How good do you think bioshock 1 would have been without the theme of libertarianism gone wrong? How do you think mass effect would have been without the racism between the races constantly effecting what you do as Shepard?

    Capable female characters add a lot to a series and to completely dismiss that it should even be an issue is dumb.
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    Women who seek equality with men lack ambition.
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    I think my problem with this is that it is impossible to find an example of an acceptable game woman for those kind of people. Damsel in distress, oh so weak and helpless, misogyny. Strong main character, oh now you're saying women have to be masculine to be worth anything, misogyny. Seriously, I've heard that every which way is misogyny.

    One: Games are for profit, not political correctness.
    A game-maker will make what sells. You can't change it at the source - if there's an issue, you have to make the changes with your wallet. Once you've actually worked out what changes should be made in the first place.

    Two: I think it's devaluing games that are equal between the sexes. I've just been playing Diablo 3.

    Three: It's about interpreting it however you want. I could interpret everything as misandry if I really wanted to. It reminds me of the argument, "males aren't taken seriously as rape victims, or given support of shelters and from other people, and their female rapists legally are not 'rapists', because of misogyny - it's the view that women are too weak to rape! The issues of male rape victims is a female issue, not male!".

    (Yes, I have seen thunderf00t's video, you'll notice some similarities in my post and his video).
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    :unimpressed: Yeah, it's not like the army, sports, fire service or police have any relevance to women, is it?

    Seriously, there are plenty of women who have seen these services in action as children and been inspired to join, or have become interested in it after some research or whatever. It is disturbing that you think those things are 'men's spaces'. We're all affected by the things they do, so why should they be dominated by men?
    No, my point was that standards have been degraded just to accommodate for women in these areas. Lives are at risk, this is not a place for social experiements to shut up a few moaning feminists. If you're stranded in a burning building and a firefighter starts opening the door to rescue you I can guarantee 99% of the population will be hoping for a male fireman. There's a reason that these professions are dominated by men and it's because men are the best accustomed for these jobs. Now if a woman can meet the male requirements she should be more than free to join.

    In regard to the topic - games developers are under no obligation to pay attention to her criticisms. But if they want to expand their market share, it would be good business sense to not reduce 50% of their potential audience to sexual objects.
    Of course you make a few fallacious assumptions:

    i). That the whole 50% of the population [ie all women] are interested in gaming when in reality a very, very small minority of women actually play games.

    ii). That Feminist Frequency's points that women are reduced to sexual objects actually hold any merit [You're taking it as a gospel truth despite the fact that you've probably never played a video game in your life]

    iii). That all women care about what role women play in video games [Or men for that matter].

    (Original post by Carecup)
    Question. How good do you think bioshock 1 would have been without the theme of libertarianism gone wrong? How do you think mass effect would have been without the racism between the races constantly effecting what you do as Shepard?
    Did you even understand the point I was trying to make?

    Capable female characters add a lot to a series and to completely dismiss that it should even be an issue is dumb.
    Many capable female characters are in games. Do you not play video games? Yes sometimes they are in stereotypes roles but who gives a ****? Male characters are also in stereotyped roles, does anyone even care? No one does because video games are for enjoyment not for a place for political correctness to rear it's ugly butt.
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    I think my problem with this is that it is impossible to find an example of an acceptable game woman for those kind of people. Damsel in distress, oh so weak and helpless, misogyny. Strong main character, oh now you're saying women have to be masculine to be worth anything, misogyny. Seriously, I've heard that every which way is misogyny.

    One: Games are for profit, not political correctness.
    A game-maker will make what sells. You can't change it at the source - if there's an issue, you have to make the changes with your wallet. Once you've actually worked out what changes should be made in the first place.

    Two: I think it's devaluing games that are equal between the sexes. I've just been playing Diablo 3.

    Three: It's about interpreting it however you want. I could interpret everything as misandry if I really wanted to. It reminds me of the argument, "males aren't taken seriously as rape victims, or given support of shelters and from other people, and their female rapists legally are not 'rapists', because of misogyny - it's the view that women are too weak to rape! The issues of male rape victims is a female issue, not male!".

    (Yes, I have seen thunderf00t's video, you'll notice some similarities in my post and his video).
    Yeah, I think if you're looking for something you'll find examples of it. A game character with characteristic X who does action Y can be used to claim that the game is X-ist because it dictates that all Xes should do Y.
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    Also in nearly every video game the male is always the one who gets shafted at the end and/or experiences violence and/or dies.

    Don't hear anything about this of course because it only matters when a woman's feelings are hurt.
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    My point is that they are a very vocal minority. The death/rape threats are done "for the lulz", and although their dislike for her is very much real, I don't think there is any chance at all they would actually consider violence against her. You are acting as if there has been a genuine misogynistic backlash against her, when in fact it's edgy teenagers and basement dwelling neckbeards who take absolutely nothing seriously.
    So it's ok to threaten to rape or murder someone as long as it's only a joke? Christ Alive.

    She did have a genuine misogynistic backlash against her. She was hounded for simply proposing a video series talking about the portrayal of women in video games, focusing on the fact that she's a woman. People on this thread are saying things like "if you don't like the games, don't play them", yet these "neckbeards" wanted to were trying to get it shut down because they didn't like the idea. Someone even made a game about punchng her on the basis that she'd scammed people out of their money. They may not have taken it seriously, but it shouldn't be ignored.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    The passage you quoted is from the abstract to her master's thesis and isn't supposed to stand alone as a point so I don't think it's fair to judge it without actually reading her arguments. I don't really see the contradiction, either. She's saying that positive characteristics that are generally considered by our society to be 'feminine' are rarely found in video game characters. It is possible to have a female character who is neither a helpless damsel nor what is essentially a male character in a woman's body.
    The abstract of her thesis is two paragraphs long on the second page in to her essay and comes before the table of contents. The passage I quoted is from the top of page 9, within the introduction and comes just before the chapter opening of "Feminist Theory and Visual Culture". You sir, are a lying sycophant.

    Two points:
    1. Why should female characters only have to fall within the one archetype she finds morally acceptable? What mandate is there for all characterisations to become mono-cultural?

    2. She argues that strength and dominant personalities are not traits exclusive to males in her videos, but in her thesis claims that females that are 'strong' or dominant are just being males or donning a male costume. If you can't see that as a contradiction, you're a sociopath.
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    (Original post by Carecup)
    I find her to be really rather annoying, and honestly I see no evidence of where all that money went since she had all the video hardware and editing programs from her pitch video on kickstarter.

    Don't get me wrong I'm all in favor of having better women and men characters in video games, and while what she's saying is nothing new it is something that needs to be addressed.

    I'd much rather play characters who feel like real people rather than Damsels in distress or battle vixens for women or 'badass' space marines for men.

    I feel this video does a good job expressing what is wrong with women in video games right now.

    Excellent video - it's interesting and manages to be feminist in a positive, non-confrontational way, which is much better than the way that Kickstarter girl went about it.

    That being said, I don't really care if people wanted to give her that much money to make a few vlogs. It's their money!
 
 
 
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