Feminist Frequency
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Original post by ArtGoblin
I was speculating - that's why I used words like 'perhaps' and 'guess'. But I did a bit of research and here is what I found:
Source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration. If your last point is indeed correct and male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification, then we have a real problem in our society. I think that the reason why female gamers are happy to play games with male leads but men are not happy to play a female character is because being male is the default position in our society. Women are the 'Other' and in that way men feel they cannot relate to women, whereas for women relating to men is normal. This makes it difficult to explain what people want through market principles.
Source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration. If your last point is indeed correct and male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification, then we have a real problem in our society. I think that the reason why female gamers are happy to play games with male leads but men are not happy to play a female character is because being male is the default position in our society. Women are the 'Other' and in that way men feel they cannot relate to women, whereas for women relating to men is normal. This makes it difficult to explain what people want through market principles.
Just because games as a whole have many female users, does not mean that every genre has those demographics. Using the example of WoW (as you can set up the main character as you like), 84% of players are male.
Most people have a preference to playing a character who resembles themselves in some way, gender being perhaps the biggest marker of this. It's part of the fantasy of pretending you're the character you're controlling.
So it follows that the character will resemble the 'average' player for the expected market.
I think I've already covered most of this, but I agree that lacking a stereotypical female character does not make it a success on its on. The Sims 2 is also a fantastic game, and it wouldn't be so successful if it wasn't. But of course a game that is aimed at men and women (and also spans age ranges, which the Sims does more successfully than most games) is going to be more popular. Its potential audience doubles. Interestingly, the best selling Xbox 360 game is Kinect Adventures (aimed to men and women) and the best selling Playstation 3 game is Gran Turismo (aimed at men).
Making a product for all people doesn't actually work so well. When you have different groups, it's better imo to target the groups separately. It's like how Stephen Fry once had that rant about UK television is all being made to be 'family' entertainment nowadays.
Women make up more social gamers - they make the majority of Big Fish transactions. However, consoles are mainly a male affair. If you change games to try and double your market, you can end up losing your original audience. Game companies, surely, knows what sells, and that's what they make. I don't think any of us have the ability to know what sells better than the thousands of people whose life's work orbits around that very question.
Original post by Captain Haddock
In regards to this and that video you posted, you do realise the fire brigade does a lot more than barging down doors and carrying people away from burning buildings, right? Just today while walking through town I saw a fire engine with no fewer than 5 firefighters rescuing a pigeon who had become ensnared in the wire pigeon netting on the wall of a building. At the top of a ladder? A female firefighter! Who is anyone to say women should be excluded from such things?
But fire fighters need to be able to efficiently carry out ALL duties associated with the job, not just some, no? So, you're using the fact that there are SOME parts of the job that women can do as well as men, to justify that women are, per se, as suited to the OVERALL job, as men? Whether women are or not, pointing out CERTAIN parts of a job that women can do as well, does not prove the point that women and men are, overall, equally as good at the WHOLE job. If you think women are as good OVERALL, then why single out certain PARTS of the job? If you admit that women aren't as suited to some parts, then is this not an issue, when considering male/female recruitment to the job?
Original post by ArtGoblin
I was speculating - that's why I used words like 'perhaps' and 'guess'. But I did a bit of research and here is what I found:
source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration.
source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration.
I'm not sure how there being 43% female gamers, refutes the points many have made. And if your statistic is accurate, then what's the issue, anyway? They nearly have 50% a female market. I thought females were put off playing video games, a minute ago?
If your last point is indeed correct and male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification, then we have a real problem in our society.
You're twisting words. Saying that male demand for certain games would decrease, were sexually-enhanced female characters to be removed, does not imply that male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification. We are not talking about ALL male gamers, we are not talking specifically about female leads, and a drop in demand for games lacking in sexualised female characters, does not necessarily equal an outright refusal to buy games lacking in such things.
This has already been covered very well by other people in this thread, but I'm just going to add that the argument isn't "this is patriarchy, end of discussion". We explain how certain aspects of society have been influenced by the patriarchal structure and how this can be rectified so everyone is treated fairly. For example, this argument is brought up in regard to child residence and contact after a separation. We explain that it is often the mother who gets residence of the child because patriarchy determines that women are supposed to be mothers before any other duties. This is shutting down the discussion. This is explaining the cause of the inequality and how we think it can best be resolved.
Of course, merely asserting that this is the reason, doesn't make it immediately true.
I think I've already covered most of this, but I agree that lacking a stereotypical female character does not make it a success on its on. The Sims 2 is also a fantastic game, and it wouldn't be so successful if it wasn't. But of course a game that is aimed at men and women (and also spans age ranges, which the Sims does more successfully than most games) is going to be more popular. Its potential audience doubles. Interestingly, the best selling Xbox 360 game is Kinect Adventures (aimed to men and women) and the best selling Playstation 3 game is Gran Turismo (aimed at men).
Using this logic, no product should ever be aimed at one gender, as it cuts off a potential 50% market. Some things do well, being aimed at one gender, even though this is true. Making a product appeal to one gender, can make it sell so well to THAT gender, as to offset the 50% potential market loss.
Original post by ArtGoblin
I was speculating - that's why I used words like 'perhaps' and 'guess'. But I did a bit of research and here is what I found:
Source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration. If your last point is indeed correct and male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification, then we have a real problem in our society. I think that the reason why female gamers are happy to play games with male leads but men are not happy to play a female character is because being male is the default position in our society. Women are the 'Other' and in that way men feel they cannot relate to women, whereas for women relating to men is normal. This makes it difficult to explain what people want through market principles.
Source: http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol11/issue4/hartmann.html
So it seems there is a market for female gamers after all. Even more surprisingly, in the US 43% of gamers are female which suggests that games developers should be taking their views into consideration. If your last point is indeed correct and male gamers wouldn't buy a game with a female lead who is not there for sexual gratification, then we have a real problem in our society. I think that the reason why female gamers are happy to play games with male leads but men are not happy to play a female character is because being male is the default position in our society. Women are the 'Other' and in that way men feel they cannot relate to women, whereas for women relating to men is normal. This makes it difficult to explain what people want through market principles.
the irony when your theory backfires on you. The vast majority of girls seemingly don't care about what you just said their main concern regarding the game according to your link is in-game social interaction, violence, and how competitive the game is.Original post by ArtGoblin
This has already been covered very well by other people in this thread, but I'm just going to add that the argument isn't "this is patriarchy, end of discussion". We explain how certain aspects of society have been influenced by the patriarchal structure and how this can be rectified so everyone is treated fairly. For example, this argument is brought up in regard to child residence and contact after a separation. We explain that it is often the mother who gets residence of the child because patriarchy determines that women are supposed to be mothers before any other duties. This is shutting down the discussion. This is explaining the cause of the inequality and how we think it can best be resolved.
This has already been covered very well by other people in this thread, but I'm just going to add that the argument isn't "this is patriarchy, end of discussion". We explain how certain aspects of society have been influenced by the patriarchal structure and how this can be rectified so everyone is treated fairly. For example, this argument is brought up in regard to child residence and contact after a separation. We explain that it is often the mother who gets residence of the child because patriarchy determines that women are supposed to be mothers before any other duties. This is shutting down the discussion. This is explaining the cause of the inequality and how we think it can best be resolved.
No it's not patriarchy would mean the father would get the children!! Patriarchy is when fathers have rights over mother's and children, which you know don't happen! If anything it's ridiculous you don't realize that that means that patriarchy isn't real, because at the moment society is un-patriarchal, considering women have much more rights over children than men do over children! About 150 years ago men would have got the children in a court case by default!
Original post by ArtGoblin
I think I've already covered most of this, but I agree that lacking a stereotypical female character does not make it a success on its on. The Sims 2 is also a fantastic game, and it wouldn't be so successful if it wasn't. But of course a game that is aimed at men and women (and also spans age ranges, which the Sims does more successfully than most games) is going to be more popular. Its potential audience doubles. Interestingly, the best selling Xbox 360 game is Kinect Adventures (aimed to men and women) and the best selling Playstation 3 game is Gran Turismo (aimed at men).
I think I've already covered most of this, but I agree that lacking a stereotypical female character does not make it a success on its on. The Sims 2 is also a fantastic game, and it wouldn't be so successful if it wasn't. But of course a game that is aimed at men and women (and also spans age ranges, which the Sims does more successfully than most games) is going to be more popular. Its potential audience doubles. Interestingly, the best selling Xbox 360 game is Kinect Adventures (aimed to men and women) and the best selling Playstation 3 game is Gran Turismo (aimed at men).
Oh, is it?
Because this says otherwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinect_AdventuresYeah... It's because they count the number of copies sold bought with the Xbox console and the Kinect as a bundle, in reality Call Of duty, vastly outsold that game in terms of being bought on its own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Xbox_360_video_games
Note: all of the games except that one are aimed to males in the top 10.
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 11 years ago)
Ronove
Nowhere in her post did edithwashere say our society is currently a patriarchal one so your post is a big irrelevant rant against nothing.
Erm, she said this:
"Britain has had a patriarchal structure in society for the past thousand years".
Tip: before you post a patronising post to someone else, make sure you have your facts straight; lest YOU be the one who comes off looking like an idiot.
Original post by truffle_girl
Erm, she said this:
"Britain has had a patriarchal structure in society for the past thousand years".
Tip: before you post a patronising post to someone else, make sure you have your facts straight; lest YOU be the one who comes off looking like an idiot.
"Britain has had a patriarchal structure in society for the past thousand years".
Tip: before you post a patronising post to someone else, make sure you have your facts straight; lest YOU be the one who comes off looking like an idiot.
Haha, thanks! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024304/Why-more-women-losing-custody-battles-children.html
Read this, after all of this she actually has the audacity to complain! Ridiculous.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by dartanoir
If I am so 'butt ugly' and 'out of shape' how would you explain constant cat calling, threats of rape, and groping?
EDIT: I live in a really horrible place. I realise that the threats aren't serious most of the time and are made to just make me feel uncomfortable.
EDIT: I live in a really horrible place. I realise that the threats aren't serious most of the time and are made to just make me feel uncomfortable.
Don't you dare say you get threatened with rape often. (you're not even that good looking for a start and even good look girls don't get threatened that much) Don't you dare make out it's a feminist issue. Also saying you get groping and constant cat calling? Wtf? You're an idiot. Chances are the few people who would grope you, would do so regardless of todays society. Do you think Ted Bundy cared for the lives he took when he killed them?
And you live in a horrible place? LOL! You live in Grantham, ffs! I live about 20 miles away and I've never witnessed (nor my beautiful sisters) getting threatened so much.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by redferry
I actually think the term feminazis is horrific. I mean equating feminists to nazis is just wrong. I get called it on a daily basis, and I haven't gassed any jewish or disabled people as far as I know.
IF you get called it on a daily basis, you must have distorted views to make these people say these things. I agree with some of your posts like custody of children but in general, it doesn't even sound like feminism what you're describing, it just sounds like equality and diversity. Something I totally agree on. There is no need for feminists anymore, not in the UK, women are just as equal in most terms as men. If you move to Saudi Arabia, I'll totally support you.
Original post by Michaelj
IF you get called it on a daily basis, you must have distorted views to make these people say these things. I agree with some of your posts like custody of children but in general, it doesn't even sound like feminism what you're describing, it just sounds like equality and diversity. Something I totally agree on. There is no need for feminists anymore, not in the UK, women are just as equal in most terms as men. If you move to Saudi Arabia, I'll totally support you.
Well that is what I support (and still constantly get called a feminazi)! That is what feminism originally set out to do and I resent giving the term over to crazy extremists.
Original post by redferry
Well that is what I support (and still constantly get called a feminazi)! That is what feminism originally set out to do and I resent giving the term over to crazy extremists.
Just change your view to "equality and diversity" and stop making silly comments like we need feminism because men perv on me because I am tall and have big boobs.
Original post by Michaelj
Don't you dare say you get threatened with rape often. (you're not even that good looking for a start and even good look girls don't get threatened that much) Don't you dare make out it's a feminist issue. Also saying you get groping and constant cat calling? Wtf? You're an idiot. Chances are the few people who would grope you, would do so regardless of todays society. Do you think Ted Bundy cared for the lives he took when he killed them?
And you live in a horrible place? LOL! You live in Grantham, ffs! I live about 20 miles away and I've never witnessed (nor my beautiful sisters) getting threatened so much.
And you live in a horrible place? LOL! You live in Grantham, ffs! I live about 20 miles away and I've never witnessed (nor my beautiful sisters) getting threatened so much.
In all fairness she may well have these issues. I've been threatened with rape 3 times since September (I live in Burley park in Leeds, plus before that it happened at least a few times while I was at Bristol Uni and I was almost raped while drunk there and had my drink spiked twice) and I'm not stunning by any means.
Maybe it's a blondes thing?
Original post by Michaelj
Just change your view to "equality and diversity" and stop making silly comments like we need feminism because men perv on me because I am tall and have big boobs.
I am stubborn and I am not letting crazy people have the term feminist! ¬_¬
And we need SOMETHING because men perv on me because I'm tall and have have big boobs. I am sick of being touched up!
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by redferry
Well that is what I support (and still constantly get called a feminazi)! That is what feminism originally set out to do and I resent giving the term over to crazy extremists.
You might as well just abandon it in all honesty feminism only covers women, egalitarian covers women men transsex/gender, ect.... But feminism don't, Feminism is, only concerned with lesbian women, and hetro women and that's it what about transmen?? Or transwomen??
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Original post by redferry
In all fairness she may well have these issues. I've been threatened with rape 3 times since September (I live in Burley park in Leeds, plus before that it happened at least a few times while I was at Bristol Uni and I was almost raped while drunk there and had my drink spiked twice) and I'm not stunning by any means.
Maybe it's a blondes thing?
Maybe it's a blondes thing?
As a guy I've been threatened with rape also. I only took it seriously once as he followed me into the toilets. It's not a nice feeling, no.. But at the same time she made out she gets "regular" rape threats and regularly gets groped. She lives in Grantham. Lincolnshire has one of the lowest crime rates in the UK, so I was told and as far as I'm aware Grantham is a lovely place to live in.
Original post by jreid1994
You might as well just abandon it in all honesty feminism only covers women, egalitarian covers women men transsex/gender, ect.... But feminism don't, Feminism is, only concerned with lesbian women, and hetro women and that's it what about transmen?? Or transwomen??
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Posted from TSR Mobile
I like everyone leave me alone
Can't I be a feminist AND egalitarian? Are they so mutually exclusive?
Original post by redferry
I like everyone leave me alone
Can't I be a feminist AND egalitarian? Are they so mutually exclusive?
Can't I be a feminist AND egalitarian? Are they so mutually exclusive?
No, it's not you, it's the definition of feminism compared to egalitarian, feminism only covers women, whereas egalitarian covers men women trans black white disabled... Straight lesbian pansexual...
Plus feminists have quite a few nasty people involved in itself, like the like of Andrea Dawson/Dawkins?? IDK, but she was a very nasty woman, she was a blatant misandrist and she is definitely one of the leading academics involved in it.
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(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by Michaelj
As a guy I've been threatened with rape also. I only took it seriously once as he followed me into the toilets. It's not a nice feeling, no.. But at the same time she made out she gets "regular" rape threats and regularly gets groped. She lives in Grantham. Lincolnshire has one of the lowest crime rates in the UK, so I was told and as far as I'm aware Grantham is a lovely place to live in.
Yeah my boyfriend actually was raped, by a girl, before we got together. Pretty ****ed up stuff. Well I say rape, it was more attempted because he was too drunk for his penis to work properly.
The gropage will happen if you go on nights out, it just will, wherever you are, there is no way to avoid it, if you are ugly people grope you for a laugh and if you are attractive they grope you well...because, a variety of reasons, but overall guys grope because they are ****ers.
I'm originally from Birmingham which according to the rest of the country is a ****hole and never had a single issue there though weirdly (other than mild gropage). Not sure if that is because I have grown into my looks or because of the clubs I go to in Brum or just because the attitudes are better.
Original post by jreid1994
No, it's not you, it's the definition of feminism compared to egalitarian, feminism only covers women, whereas egalitarian covers men women trans black white disabled... Straight lesbian pansexual...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
The actually definition of feminism is gender equality, which I believe in.
Original post by redferry
The actually definition of feminism is gender equality, which I believe in.
It don't include transgender....
besides men are facing a lot of problems now, in custody courts for example I know women do make up a majority of the victims of sexual violent crime, but almost every single other violent crime is mainly almost 3:1 male:female victims. Murder, muggings, stabbings... More men than women in high ranked jobs but more men sleep rough more men at bottom jobs too. Then women face sexism for doing "masculine" jobs but men face problems for trying to go into female dominated careers like primary school teaching and men get suspicion from the women. All in all the world is pretty bad for men and women. Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by jreid1994
They have a gender so still come under gender equality...
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