Join TSR now to have your say on this topicSign up now
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anony.mouse)
    In the same way that only a very few degrees would give you the knwoledge in geography/psychology you need to know to allow you to do a job using either of those degrees. :facepalm: And the same goes for some of the other subjects you had on that list.
    Well, there's a difference between one specific degree and very few, isn't there? Law is both something necessary for society and something specific to one degree.

    Again, please remember that I did not suggest getting rid of all humanities places, just some.

    Nobody can seriously suggest that a society needs graduates from English, History and Psychology as much as it needs graduates from Medicine, Chemistry and Engineering, for instance.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Joinedup)
    the 'I'm alright jack' detector went off, just teasing you.

    It's fairly easy for cameron, gove etc. to *say* apprenticeship should be highly valued. What they really mean is that apprenticeships aught to be good enough for other peoples kids. Are they going to be happy about their own kids doing apprenticeships? Probably not.

    Also I think you've got law in the wrong category, the law society was warning several years ago that there were far more law graduates than training contracts and things haven't changed since afaik.
    Potentially - I wasn't aware it was so over subscribed.

    The current cabinet probably wouldn't be happy with their kids doing apprenticeships, but I can guarantee you that the children of the current cabinet will study at elite universities so whatever they do, they'll be alright.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by melissabishopx)
    ah, it may not have been you that called people thickys but someone did. i just read the posts not the names on the app..
    when you say you didn't try, that's understandable and you went on to change that, but not everyone has the opportunity to start again and redo their a levels etc. my grades were awful considering what i was predicted/know i'm capable of, and as a result can't go to any of the top unis but if i was told i couldn't have a place anywhere just because of some mistakes i made at college, i would be angry. i think that not everyone goes to uni to get a degree for a job, it's about learning more about your subject. for example i want to be a lawyer but i'm not just jumping on a law course, because i am really interested in politics so have chosen this as my degree and will probably do a law conversion course later. i simply want to go to university to build on what i learnt at a level and learn more. why should that be stopped?
    If someone has bad A-Level grades, IMO they have very little right to challenge for a top university place. I am aware of course of exceptions, some universities take poorer grades from students from schools/areas they know are failing, etc.

    If you're not going to university with the intent of ending up with a high enough salary to pay your loans back you shouldn't be going to university. You're massively wasting the taxpayers money.

    From what I've been told in this thread you've got about as much chance of getting into law David Cameron has of being elected in 2015.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    The humanities are important not a practical level, but on an, erm, humanistic one. Studying the humanities helps us to understand who we are; it would be a sad day when only 'practical' subjects are valued.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Only if the student earns enough in their lifetime to pay back the loan.
    As I said "in theory"
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Psychology
    Not a humanities subject. You've titled this thread incorrectly.

    Anyway, I kind of agree with you on some aspects. But lets actually ask the question of what's wrong with too many applicants. It's not that these are fake ghost subjects; there are very real and necessary careers from them. just not as many roles as the people applying. Here people need to have realistic expectations - people need to know from a school level about their options and choices.

    But the general issue is that there will always be a need for people to work in retail and such, with x% from the bottom always being destined there. I would say that the problem is with trying to push too many people through university. Of course the lower percentage will choose the easier and less usable degrees.

    But this is bad - as I've said, there are proper careers from them. But flooding the gates with less capable people who don't even really care about that subject devalues the degree, and makes it look worse in the eyes of other people.

    Back to psychology, as this is the one I know, it should be split up. This works because it's way too wide an area, but I don't know if the method would work for other subjects. I'd say this should go three ways:

    Psychology 1 = for people who want to go into research. Although many psychology degrees are already BSc's and full of statistics, a Biology degree does, in my mind, look better than a Psychology one. Psychology 1 would be chocked full of stats, so that when postgraduate courses say they'll accept people from this list of naturalistic science undergrads, Psychology 1 is included. High standards stops this from being devalued by the floods.

    Psychology 2 = clinical psychology. It is insane that those who want to be clinical psychologists have to do a psychology degree, then try, desperately try, to get onto the oversubscribed clinical psychology courses. That's not how it's done abroad, I've heard. The clinical psychology route should start from the beginning so that there's the correct number taking it, rather than essentially getting part-way and most being unable to continue. Control the number of applicants here.

    Psychology 3 = more general lighter stuff, more people-y. A lot of people take psychology because they care about people. Maybe they want to go into counselling, or HR.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    If someone has bad A-Level grades, IMO they have very little right to challenge for a top university place. I am aware of course of exceptions, some universities take poorer grades from students from schools/areas they know are failing, etc.

    If you're not going to university with the intent of ending up with a high enough salary to pay your loans back you shouldn't be going to university. You're massively wasting the taxpayers money.

    From what I've been told in this thread you've got about as much chance of getting into law David Cameron has of being elected in 2015.
    I suppose I broadly agree with the principle behind what you are saying. I'm less sold on the idea that some areas should be restricted though.

    It is a bit of a shame that degrees have been so de-valued over the past 15-20 years. Even getting a 2:1 from a good uni is no longer a particularly notable achievement. I suppose that the answer I would prefer would be one which gave kids more viable options when deciding whether or not to go to University.

    I'm also not keen on the idea that the object of going to uni *should* be to earn more money. I went to study a subject (a social science) that I was interested in. Whilst at uni, I got heavily involved with various societies and sports- which definitely aided my personal enrichment.

    The fact that I have landed on my feet in the job market after is the result of some serious graft, but it was not the reason I chose the course or institution.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Azarimanka)
    Yes of course, if we want doers and not thinkers. Pretty crap society that though. Bit like China where they destroyed their history and their culture is slowly dying.


    What we need to do is cut the number of universities: only intelligent people need to do degrees. I'm sorry, it's controversial but true. Thickies with CCC and BBC at A level are getting 'degrees' from ex-polys in whatever and claiming its equal to Russell group or whatever. It's not, it's a waste of taxpayers' money. We should fund strongly our intellectual elite, whatever they choose to study.
    Grades do not accurately reflect intelligence. Being intelligent certainly helps, but it is more do with hard work and writing answers that cohere to the mark scheme. I know many people who get straight As but are incredibly naïve and ignorant. On the other hand, people who get Cs can still be much smarter than others.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Because it's an absolute waste of the taxpayers money to fund a student through a degree that gets put to no use.

    Degrees only give you a 'wider choice of jobs' because so many employers run graduate schemes. Originally, these schemes were meant so that employers could siphon the 'intelligent' i.e. university graduates away from the rest of the prospective job-hunters.

    These graduate schemes are now meaningless because so many people go to university. Too many people going to university has led to a very strange jobs market where positions that don't require a degree to actually do the job, require a degree to apply.

    I think that having too many students in the humanities (and social sciences, etc) subjects at university is part of this problem. You won't find many science graduates doing jobs that don't utilise their knowledge of science, but you'll find tons of Lit, Sociology and Psychology graduates doing non-specific, generic grad jobs.

    We really need to stop sending so many people to uni. It's bloody expensive and people often don't earn enough to pay their loans back, which is then a loss for the state.

    If it wasn't for the fact that you absolutely need a degree to keep up with every tom, **** and harry, I wouldn't have done one.

    I can see your point of view, but you're focusing on the wrong thing. You're thinking because someone studys history that therefore the skills they learn are only going to be useful in a history career. That is a false assumption. You pick up so many skills through education that are relevant to most jobs, that's why employers ask for grads. That's why I'm returning to education at the grand old age of 30, I can see clearly how to apply the skills I'll learn along the way. (History btw)

    I do share your concerns that the job market will be flooded with grads though, there will a few dissapointed in the future. I can imagine a future where you'll need a degree to work in McDonalds.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    I can see your point of view, but you're focusing on the wrong thing. You're thinking because someone studys history that therefore the skills they learn are only going to be useful in a history career. That is a false assumption. You pick up so many skills through education that are relevant to most jobs, that's why employers ask for grads. That's why I'm returning to education at the grand old age of 30, I can see clearly how to apply the skills I'll learn along the way. (History btw)

    I do share your concerns that the job market will be flooded with grads though, there will a few dissapointed in the future. I can imagine a future where you'll need a degree to work in McDonalds.
    What can you see that I can't?

    I can't see a single thing I've learnt on my degree so far that is at all relevant to a job. All I've learnt is a bit more sociology :confused:

    This is why to me it feels like an extension of A-Levels. I learnt how to essay write at A-Level. My essay technique has barely changed.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    But where would all the hot easy sluts be if it weren't for psychology and sociology degrees?

    OP didn't think this through
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    What can you see that I can't?

    I can't see a single thing I've learnt on my degree so far that is at all relevant to a job. All I've learnt is a bit more sociology :confused:

    This is why to me it feels like an extension of A-Levels. I learnt how to essay write at A-Level. My essay technique has barely changed.
    Sounds like you haven't been listening to your careers department.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    People do those degrees because they want to, you can't just take it away because you don't want loads of people to have essay based degrees...

    So what if people want to be psychologists, geologists...

    There's a reason why there is do much variety regarding degrees!


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by LexiswasmyNexis)
    Sounds like you haven't been listening to your careers department.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Or there's very little you can learn from a degree, really?

    I've learnt more in the real world of work, about work, than I have from a degree.

    I seriously can't think of a thing this degree has taught me other than sociology. What can a history teach you other than history? What can English teach you other than an appreciation of literature? etc
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Or there's very little you can learn from a degree, really?

    I've learnt more in the real world of work, about work, than I have from a degree.

    I seriously can't think of a thing this degree has taught me other than sociology. What can a history teach you other than history? What can English teach you other than an appreciation of literature? etc
    Well you are doing sociology...


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Izzyeviel)
    I can imagine a future where you'll need a degree to work in McDonalds.
    If that happens, we are all screwed, it would be unbelievable...

    To the OP, people do those degrees because they want to, you can't just take it away because you don't want loads of people to have essay based degrees...

    So what if people want to be psychologists, geologists...

    There's a reason why there is do much variety regarding degrees!

    But in reality, degrees are not worth 30k, I get what people are saying about not learning skills for certain jobs, but most employers want people with knowledge.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Or there's very little you can learn from a degree, really?

    I've learnt more in the real world of work, about work, than I have from a degree.

    I seriously can't think of a thing this degree has taught me other than sociology. What can a history teach you other than history? What can English teach you other than an appreciation of literature? etc
    Sorry my last post was too flippant.

    In my degree I learnt how to conduct qualitative and quantitative analysis. I learnt how to more thoroughly research issues and produce a more integrated and coherent thesis as a result.

    I did presentations, group work, consulting projects with outside bodies. I also did lots of EC stuff which exposed me to responsibility and individuals I could not have had access to elsewhere.

    My essays were very different to A-level work. Very different indeed.... I didn't really know any sociology students at uni, but I can't imagine it wild be that different from my subject.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    What do you think? What would be the ramifications of this if we took 60% of the places on these degrees away and put the extra funding into subjects like maths, chemistry, biology, physics, engineering, law, medicine, nursing, biomedical science, other STEM subjects and so on
    Well, one of the major ramifications would be that universities would lose a tonne of money. That's all it is about, these days, money.

    I am a Philosophy major graduate and you are right, courses like that do not prepare the student for the working world. I have experience of that, thanks for rubbing it in .
    I am now looking into a more applicable degree. By that, I mean one of the ones you listed because so far, my degree in philosophy has insured me a place in retail for five years. I don't want to stay in this forever. On the plus side, I get my five-year loyality bonus... *grimace* :rolleyes:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    If I was an employer, I would rather have someone who can form and compose an ethical argument rather than someone who can work out the circumference of something. Of course humanities subjects prepare you for jobs!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tomasg434)
    If I was an employer, I would rather have someone who can form and compose an ethical argument rather than someone who can work out the circumference of something. Of course humanities subjects prepare you for jobs!
    Not a lot of jobs are ever going to need ethical analysis, not to mention that is something which can usually be worked out through basic common sense and does not require 3 years of study @£9000 a year.

    On the other hand, someone who can "work out the circumference of something" has specific skills which are essential for a huge range of vital fields, namely engineering, IT etc
 
 
 
Poll
If you won £30,000, which of these would you spend it on?
Useful resources
Uni match

Applying to uni?

Our tool will help you find the perfect course

Articles:

Debate and current affairs guidelinesDebate and current affairs wiki

Quick link:

Educational debate unanswered threads

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.