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TSR close down Holocaust denial threads Watch

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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Forgive my ignorance here, but what is there to debate?
    Anything at all. This is a student room, people come here to learn.

    If someone denies the holocaust took place, they may be trolling, or they may genuinely believe it didn't because they have seen no convincing argument, because every time someone questions it they get shouted down.

    This is quite unlike someone debating the Earth going round the sun, which is blatant trolling because no one actually disbelieves that.



    And as far as anti-semitism goes, there's no better way to promote it than afford Jewish people and history some irreproachable sacred status to the exclusion of all others.
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    Why is it TSR policy to close down Holocaust denial threads? Wouldn't it be more productive to have a rational exchange of ideas in order to disprove holocaust denial? A blanket ban solves nothing.

    Also I don't know what forum section to put this under.
    I don't think it should be blocked either.

    However, there is no rational arguement that the Holicaust didn't happen. Its as ridiculous a historical statement as saying there were no native Americans or the Viking raids never happened.

    We should still let it be discussed though as we could learn why people deny it and what they want to gain by denying it. It'll also expose anyone stupid enough to say it didn't happen.
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    (Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
    Anything at all. This is a student room, people come here to learn.

    If someone denies the holocaust took place, they may be trolling, or they may genuinely believe it didn't because they have seen no convincing argument, because every time someone questions it they get shouted down.

    This is quite unlike someone debating the Earth going round the sun, which is blatant trolling because no one actually disbelieves that.



    And as far as anti-semitism goes, there's no better way to promote it than afford Jewish people and history some irreproachable sacred status to the exclusion of all others.
    You're trying to draw me on some of the niff naff and triv here... I'm not going to spend the next decade debating it. You can have discussion on any topic that doesn't break the rules and, providing that it's done in an erudite, measured and logical way, this includes topics like genocides. There's a difference between outright holocaust denial and educated discussion about the Holocaust - I don't think our positions here are divergent at all. The former nobody wants to see, the latter is generally welcomed as long is it's done sensitively and sensibly.
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    (Original post by Tabzqt)
    It's actually pretty clear that just closing down dissenting opinion doesn't stop people not believing in the holocaust. Only an examination of their claims, showing how they are wrong, will be effective in changing their minds.
    I have participated and witnessed many of these "debates" (they tend to be a cringe-worthy assortment of irrational arguments, bad evidence, false assumptions and logical fallacies) and, despite overwhelming evidence, well-argued positions and irrefutable points, it has never made anyone "change their mind". It became clear that people who take up these positions are not doing it out to create a discussion on a contentious issue (which it's not really), but to advance some very sinister agenda of hate against a group of individuals.

    (Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
    It's not outright denial that it happened, it definitely happened, but I came across this last night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeG89gyV_LU) and to me that certainly ticks the boxes of erudite, measured and backed up with evidence.
    David Cole renounced his holocaust revisionism and this "documentary". Unless, of course, you think it's all a Jewish conspiracy and they forced him to go back on his revisionism.

    And this is what I mean by questionable agendas, the video itself is posted by people who go on hate centric sites, looking at the description and I think I almost choked on my Pepsi when I saw 'Zion Crime Factory'... :erm:

    It's these types of websites and, more commonly, a certain White Nationalist forum, that use TSR as a medium for advancing their views with no actual care for finding the truth.
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    (Original post by Ape Gone Insane)
    I have participated and witnessed many of these "debates" (they tend to be a cringe-worthy assortment of irrational arguments, bad evidence, false assumptions and logical fallacies) and, despite overwhelming evidence, well-argued positions and irrefutable points, it has never made anyone "change their mind". It became clear that people who take up these positions are not doing it out to create a discussion on a contentious issue (which it's not really), but to advance some very sinister agenda of hate against a group of individuals.



    David Cole renounced his holocaust revisionism and this "documentary". Unless, of course, you think it's all a Jewish conspiracy and they forced him to go back on his revisionism.

    And this is what I mean by questionable agendas, the video itself is posted by people who go on hate centric sites, looking at the description and I think I almost choked on my Pepsi when I saw 'Zion Crime Factory'... :erm:

    It's these types of websites and, more commonly, a certain White Nationalist forum, that use TSR as a medium for advancing their views with no actual care for finding the truth.
    this is precisely why we should not be prevented from discussing it.
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    I don't think shutting down the threads is aimed at proving to Holocaust deniers that they are wrong. It's about trying to find a balance between allowing people freedom to debate what they like and discrimination/the feelings of a particular group of people. Clearly TSR has considered the latter to be more important.

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    (Original post by Steevee)
    I've seen plenty of people on here deny plenty of other Genocides, special status should not be afforded to the Holocaust.
    I agree.

    I believe the Holocaust occurred and would have nothing to contribute to such a debate however i don't believe it is anti-Semitic to discuss it given that genocides of all religions have occurred.

    Discussion should be allowed.
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    I think it's worth mentioning that there isn't some sort of blanket ban on Holocaust denial threads per se. It's more that every time such a thread is made (by one of the resident trolls I might add), it very quickly descends into a slanging match which is no fun for the forum users and no fun for the mods who have to deal with the aftermath.

    Threads which turn into flame wars are binned regardless of the topic under discussion (this is also seen with threads on the subject of immigration, abortion, etc). It just so happens that threads which support Holocaust denial tend to become spammy cluster****s more often than threads on other topics.

    Which isn't really that surprising if you think about it.
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    (Original post by Tuerin)
    Everything is subject to debate. It's pretty scary to support banning a subject of discussion because of your own viewpoint.
    Well yes. But most threads that are clearly inherently racist get banned. Holocaust denial is completely anti-semitic, so TSR isn't about to allow it.
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    We should start closing evolution-denying threads too.
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    (Original post by Pinkhead)
    We should start closing evolution-denying threads too.
    Yep. Plus anything started by Ukip members. (<< irony)
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    (Original post by ChocoCoatedLemons)
    Holocaust denial is completely anti-semitic, so TSR isn't about to allow it.
    Just because Holocaust denial is usually associated with antisemitism doesn't mean it always is so. The OP of the thread that got deleted said he didn't agree with fascism, antisemitism etc. Take from that what you will. He might be telling the truth, he might not. My point is that some people are not racist and still doubt aspects of the Holocaust (there might not be many, but they still exist). We need to address their concerns rather than just banning them.
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    Well, personally I wouldn't want to partake in such a ridiculous debate and there is no real need for it, on TSR or anywhere. However I don't THINK holocaust denial is illegal in the UK. This is a mainly UK website so I would have thought it could be allowed? Then again maybe they're worried about its use in countries such as Germany where I think it is illegal.
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    How can you have a rational debate about something completely irrational? Holocaust denial is inherently anti-Semitic, and is not really worth discussing. TSR also shuts down racist threads, some threads are just not stated in a way to allow reasoned debate.
    If someone believes the holocaust didn't happen the way it did that doesn't imply they hate jews. I don't understand why this has so many upvotes.
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    (Original post by abc:))
    Well, personally I wouldn't want to partake in such a ridiculous debate and there is no real need for it, on TSR or anywhere. However I don't THINK holocaust denial is illegal in the UK. This is a mainly UK website so I would have thought it could be allowed? Then again maybe they're worried about its use in countries such as Germany where I think it is illegal.
    See the Mod explanation above - they haven't dumped the thread because of legal issues. However, I find the explanation that it has a high degree of argument a bit weak - isn't a debating area supposed to have a lot of argument, some of it rather fierce? I suppose if it descends to personal insults, that's different.

    The problem with automatically deleting threads on this subject is that it tends to feed the delusions of deniers - they read on the websites that influence them that all discussion of the supposed "truth" is prohibited, which kind of serves the paranoid mentality of it.
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    (Original post by Pinkhead)
    We should start closing evolution-denying threads too.
    While we're at, lets just close everything you don't agree with?
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    (Original post by AJ_Moose)
    While we're at, lets just close everything you don't agree with?
    I think you missed my point. I was trying to show that if we close down holocaust denial threads on the basis that there is 'no rational argument for it', we should be doing the same for evolution denials too. Clearly a ridiculous thing to do.
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    Denying that the Holocaust happened is irrational and idiotic. But have you seen how many conspiracy theories are followed - look at 9/11 truthers.

    There are sites dedicated to such conspiracy theories, which are generally heavily biased and inaccurate. There are far fewer dedicated to debunking these - a youtube video debunking the thermite thing here for 9/11, another on why the emails about global warming aren't that massive, etc. These can hardly keep up with the overall picture - because always, those who think a conspiracy is a thing is going to be more involved than those who think it's not.

    There is one way that can really help against such opinions. Debate and discussion. Forums.

    Here, when someone spouts bs, bias and misinformation, you can almost guarantee that someone will check it, and they will answer it. We see this happen on other equally irrational things - check out the Creationism v.s. Evolution thread on the Religion board.

    Mr Bloggs is interested in the Holocaust conspiracy theories, lets say. He wants to find out. He makes a thread and starts a discussion, and sees that Holocaust denial is continually called out and debunked, and seems to be full of internal consistencies. Very interesting. It's probably wrong, Mr Bloggs decides, based on the facts that have been presented. Mr Smith is, however, on a forum that doesn't allow debate. He instead googles it, ends up on a Holocaust denial site, and is swayed by all the (bs) evidence - with nothing to counter it.

    In my opinion, closing the discussion down indirectly encourages extremism and falsehoods.

    P.S. A+ for TSR for leaving this open - I have seen many forums etc. where the ones who run it get emotionally involved when a thread is made questioning one of their methods - they see it as people deciding that they are incapable of running it etc., when at least from my end it's quite the opposite. I'm still here because I like TSR, which is going to be a large part thanks to the ones who turn the cogs.
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    Denying that the Holocaust happened is irrational and idiotic. But have you seen how many conspiracy theories are followed - look at 9/11 truthers.

    There are sites dedicated to such conspiracy theories, which are generally heavily biased and inaccurate. There are far fewer dedicated to debunking these - a youtube video debunking the thermite thing here for 9/11, another on why the emails about global warming aren't that massive, etc. These can hardly keep up with the overall picture - because always, those who think a conspiracy is a thing is going to be more involved than those who think it's not.

    There is one way that can really help against such opinions. Debate and discussion. Forums.

    Here, when someone spouts bs, bias and misinformation, you can almost guarantee that someone will check it, and they will answer it. We see this happen on other equally irrational things - check out the Creationism v.s. Evolution thread on the Religion board.

    Mr Bloggs is interested in the Holocaust conspiracy theories, lets say. He wants to find out. He makes a thread and starts a discussion, and sees that Holocaust denial is continually called out and debunked, and seems to be full of internal consistencies. Very interesting. It's probably wrong, Mr Bloggs decides, based on the facts that have been presented. Mr Smith is, however, on a forum that doesn't allow debate. He instead googles it, ends up on a Holocaust denial site, and is swayed by all the (bs) evidence - with nothing to counter it.

    In my opinion, closing the discussion down indirectly encourages extremism and falsehoods.
    good post, completely agree.
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    (Original post by Pinkhead)
    I think you missed my point. I was trying to show that if we close down holocaust denial threads on the basis that there is 'no rational argument for it', we should be doing the same for evolution denials too. Clearly a ridiculous thing to do.
    Fair enough.

    (Original post by lightburns)
    Denying that the Holocaust happened is irrational and idiotic. But have you seen how many conspiracy theories are followed - look at 9/11 truthers.

    There are sites dedicated to such conspiracy theories, which are generally heavily biased and inaccurate. There are far fewer dedicated to debunking these - a youtube video debunking the thermite thing here for 9/11, another on why the emails about global warming aren't that massive, etc. These can hardly keep up with the overall picture - because always, those who think a conspiracy is a thing is going to be more involved than those who think it's not.

    There is one way that can really help against such opinions. Debate and discussion. Forums.

    Here, when someone spouts bs, bias and misinformation, you can almost guarantee that someone will check it, and they will answer it. We see this happen on other equally irrational things - check out the Creationism v.s. Evolution thread on the Religion board.

    Mr Bloggs is interested in the Holocaust conspiracy theories, lets say. He wants to find out. He makes a thread and starts a discussion, and sees that Holocaust denial is continually called out and debunked, and seems to be full of internal consistencies. Very interesting. It's probably wrong, Mr Bloggs decides, based on the facts that have been presented. Mr Smith is, however, on a forum that doesn't allow debate. He instead googles it, ends up on a Holocaust denial site, and is swayed by all the (bs) evidence - with nothing to counter it.

    In my opinion, closing the discussion down indirectly encourages extremism and falsehoods.
    The problem is that you make think it is irrational and idiotic but that is just an opinion. I acknowledge that you agree debate is the best way forward though.

    The problem with trying to put forward a conspiracy theory is that you're battling against a general population and psyche that does not and will not believe their own government would do such a thing. If you ask them (Americans, Brits etc) whether for example the Syrian regime could be capable of killing its own people then the general population is ready and willing to believe it possible. Yet for some reason we think for example the people running the show in the US are somehow different human beings to those in Syria or elsewhere. Psychological study after psychological study has shown humans of all races and cultures are capable of doing the same terrible things to each other. Documents are available that detail the CIAs idea of hijacking and bombing airlines in the 60s and blaming it on Cuba to gander support for an invasion. These documents are official and released under freedom of information. Google 'Operation Northwoods'.

    I'm way off topic but my point is people are conditioned to believe one prospect is ridiculous and to shout down anyone who challenges this. It is part of human nature.
 
 
 
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