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Trans woman commits suicide after being bullied by the Daily Mail Watch

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    (Original post by Iron Lady)
    I don't think he should have written an article on it, it was appalling journalism. Transgender is a personal issue, but I can actually see how it could have been unsettling for the children, depending on their age and maturity. Perhaps to make it more accepted, people should stop making such a big deal out of it and just treat them like people instead of being touchy-feely. It might have worked if they just left the newsletter saying he will return as Miss Meadows, instead of doing lessons on it (some schools do) and "promoting diversity" as you can't change how people think and it shouldn't be spreading propaganda. I do not think Richard Littlejohn is directly responsible for the tragic suicide, he may have triggered feelings of despair, but many people are supportive of transgender issues so following the article this would have been apparent. Correct me if I'm wrong, Littlejohn did not openly say he's disapproving of transgender and tell him to commit suicide. I'm afraid it's a fact of life at least one person will not agree with choices or the way people are.

    I hope this hasn't offended anyone.
    We can't say for certain that he is the direct reason she is dead but the way they've handled it is disgusting. They've essentially laid a rug over the blood stain and pretended nothing has happened. Reading this story made me hollow inside. Okay, so you had a male teacher who's now come back as a female teacher--is this really truly traumatising stuff? Now the children aren't dealing with a trans teacher, they have to deal with the death of one. I used to visit the DM website when I was bored but now I'm boycotting completely. Horrific people fuelling this tripe.
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    If a non-trans/non-gay/anyone who is in the majority had an article published about them in the Daily Mail and committed suicide about it no one would give two ****s.
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    But has anyone stopped for a moment to think of the devastating effect all this is having on those who really matter? Children as young as seven aren’t equipped to compute this kind of information.


    lol

    What a ridiculous comment from this so called 'journalist'. Paparazzi or parasite may fit better when it comes to the Daily Mail. Children these days are subject to transsexuals over the television, there is usually at least one (or a cross dresser) on big brother every single year, TV shows have transsexuals on all the time. If anything it is better for them to find out this way than to be watching TV and have the transsexual bombshell dropped and some woman with pretty masculine features appears or 'worse' yet a transsexual who is no more manly than a female counter part. That is much more confusing. At least this way they are getting educated on the matter. There is too much sexual taboo when it comes to children here. Yet we blame teen-pregnancies on poverty.

    I mean what sort of respectable writer includes 'er' in a sentence.
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    That is awful and my thoughts are with the family.

    Personally I think that this life is short enough and people should be allowed to dress how they want, love who they want and be the person they are without f****** prejudice from others.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    This is not uncommon though, 30% of transgender people will kill themselves every year. The highest out of any minority group.

    The only way this number will fall, is when the adversity trans people face also falls, and public awarness of trans issues, raises.
    Unpolitically correct opinion coming here (and kneejerk negs no doubt too), but if such a significant proportion of transgender people kill themselves each year, should we perhaps question the extent to which we as a society should encourage people to change gender. Could there not be something inherent in the experience that is liable to lead to a greater incidence of mental health problems? Yes, black people face discrimination too, but they can't change their skin colour, so our only option to deal with racism is to encourage people to be less racist, and of course we should do that -- but, sad to say, we're failing there too, we still live in a racist society! Human nature is malleable but not endlessly so, there are limits to which we can eradicate our baser instincts; we certainly can't do it overnight.

    I hate the DM as much as the next poster, I loathe Richard Littlejohn, but I also think we need to question the assumption that "gender identity" is inherent and immutable. All human behaviour and thought is conditioned by environment. A woman may sincerely believe that she is "at core" (whatever that means, it certainly raises its own philosophical points about the nature of identity) a man, but I don't think that implies that that belief is the only belief she could hold through her entire life, or that it's necessarily a healthy belief. I believe that homosexuality is mainly influenced by environmental influences [in combination with one's natural make-up], but I don't see anything much wrong with homosexuality, so I don't see that as a problem, as everything that I am has likewise mainly been influenced by my environment. Just because I think that the fact that I'm on the left of the political spectrum is probably mainly caused by environmental factors rather than specific genes or bio-reductionist nonsense like that doesn't mean that I see anything wrong with being on the left, quite the opposite. :p: However, it does imply that had things been otherwise, I could well have been a fascist ******* (perhaps you think I am anyway! ) or a libertarian or an anarcho-communist. Perhaps most people who have gender identity issues could go and have talk therapy or something, but changing one's entire body and thereby perhaps entire notion of oneself is such a big (and generally irreversible) step to take, that it's unsurprising that so many people find it hard to deal with it. We also need to accept the limits of medical science: where it can do good, that's great, but surgery cannot necessarily create the human form that you have in your head, as much as we all might like that to be the case in a perfect world (though in a perfect world, surely there'd be no need for surgery, but anyway...). For those who can deal with the transition and with society's inescapable reaction to it, however, and don't have consequent mental health issues, I guess I have no problem, but because of the risks, I wouldn't be so carefree about encouraging people to act on their desires to change themselves so radically. I have lots of desires, often quite fundamental (indeed natural) ones, that I know would be harmful to act upon. :p:

    I'm sure we have quite different opinions, but I hope you can at least engage with what I say, and I'll try to engage sincerely with your point of view too.

    EDIT: I want to make clear that I'm not attacking you as a person in this post btw, far from it. I do very much hope that you're able to cope with whatever life throws at you. I certainly can't! We're all struggling to find meaning in this incomprehensible world, we all have our problems, but we're all ultimately striving after the same sorts of things. And, likewise, a thread about a suicide isn't maybe the best place to air my views on this, but I don't think I've been insensitive, not consciously anyway.
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    Somebody's been editing Wikipedia to make him look as guilt-free as possible:

    In December 2012, Littlejohn wrote an article criticising the decision of a teacher, Nathan Upton, later to be known as Lucy Meadows, to return to teach at the same school after her transition from male to female rather than choosing another school to teach at, citing concern for the sensibilities of the children. In the same article he sympathised with those who were trapped in a body of the wrong sex and underwent gender reassignment operations, and even supported the operations being carried out on the NHS provided it was for a genuine medical reason.
    Pathetic. Tempted to edit it and put in a few quotes of what he actually said about the person in question.

    "has anyone stopped for a moment to think of the devastating effect all this is having on those who really matter"

    "[Upton] isn’t entitled to project his personal problems on to impressionable young cildren."

    "Why should they be forced to deal with the news that a male teacher they have always known as Mr Upton will henceforth be a woman called Miss Meadows? Anyway, why not Miss Upton?"

    "he is putting his own selfish needs ahead of the well-being of the children he has taught for the past few years."

    And so on. Not to mention the casual disregard for Ms Meadows' preferred name and pronoun.

    Very tempting.
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    (Original post by Kiss)
    If a non-trans/non-gay/anyone who is in the majority had an article published about them in the Daily Mail and committed suicide about it no one would give two ****s.
    ...Seriously?
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    (Original post by ANARCHY__)
    Trans woman commits suicide after being bullied by the Daily Mail

    As per the headline. Not sure how directly the DM were involved in causing this but singling out a woman on a tirade against transsexuals probably isn't going to make that person more emotionally stable.

    The original article, retrieved, is here. Thanks to Darth Stewie for the link.

    Should be noted though that transsexuals kill themselves every year. Often linked to the hormones they take which can essentially kill their libido. On top of that what can also contribute to severe depression is they are unhappy with how their new appearance.


    I'd be suprised if an article by this spammer had much to do with it. He has been blabbing about LGTB people for years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/nov/10/1 (first paragraph), and you know what they say about people who continuously talk about such things.
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    (Original post by faber niger)
    Unpolitically correct opinion coming here (and kneejerk negs no doubt too), but if such a significant proportion of transgender people kill themselves each year, should we perhaps question the extent to which we as a society should encourage people to change gender. Could there not be something inherent in the experience that is liable to lead to a greater incidence of mental health problems? Yes, black people face discrimination too, but they can't change their skin colour, so our only option to deal with racism is to encourage people to be less racist, and of course we should do that -- but, sad to say, we're failing there too, we still live in a racist society! Human nature is malleable but not endlessly so, there are limits to which we can eradicate our baser instincts; we certainly can't do it overnight.

    I hate the DM as much as the next poster, I loathe Richard Littlejohn, but I also think we need to question the assumption that "gender identity" is inherent and immutable. All human behaviour and thought is conditioned by environment. A woman may sincerely believe that she is "at core" (whatever that means, it certainly raises its own philosophical points about the nature of identity) a man, but I don't think that implies that that belief is the only belief she could hold through her entire life, or that it's necessarily a healthy belief. I believe that homosexuality is mainly influenced by environmental influences rather than nature, but I don't see anything much wrong with homosexuality, so I don't see that as a problem, as everything that I am has likewise mainly been influenced by my environment. Just because I think that the fact that I'm on the left of the political spectrum is probably mainly caused by environmental factors rather than specific genes or bio-reductionist nonsense like that doesn't mean that I see anything wrong with being on the left, quite the opposite. :p: However, it does imply that had things been otherwise, I could well have been a fascist ******* (perhaps you think I am anyway! ) or a libertarian or an anarcho-communist. Perhaps most people who have gender identity issues could go and have talk therapy or something, but changing one's entire body and thereby perhaps entire notion of oneself is such a big (and generally irreversible) step to take, that it's unsurprising that so many people find it hard to deal with it. We also need to accept the limits of medical science: surgery cannot necessarily create the human form that you have in your head, as much as we all might like that to be the case in a perfect world (though in a perfect world, surely there'd be no need for surgery, but anyway...). For those who can deal with the transition and with society's inescapable reaction to it, however, and don't have consequent mental health issues, I guess I have no problem, but because of the risks, I wouldn't be so carefree about encouraging people to act on their desires to change themselves so radically. I have lots of desires, often quite fundamental ones, that I know would be harmful to act upon. :p:

    I'm sure we have quite different opinions, but I hope you can at least engage with what I say, and I'll try to engage sincerely with your point of view too.

    EDIT: I want to make clear that I'm not attacking you as a person in this post btw, far from it. I do very much hope that you're able to cope with whatever life throws at you. I certainly can't! We're all struggling to find meaning in this incomprehensible world, we all have our problems. And, likewise, a thread about a suicide isn't maybe the best place to air my views on this, but I don't think I've been insensitive, not consciously anyway.
    I think this is a tautology, personally. Perhaps people who are transgender kill themselves because society pressures them into it.

    If we accept people who change sex do so because of a biological urge (and not a culturally imposed or societal one), then suggesting people don't change gender is, of course, impossible.

    Although, even if it is environmental, should we really be laissez-faire about the expectations we demand of society? Perhaps we should expect more. Simply put, environmental or no, we should not encourage societal pressure and criticism of a choice (or not) if that change does not exert harm to the society the individual is in, should we not?
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Should be noted though that transsexuals kill themselves every year. Often linked to the hormones they take which can essentially kill their libido. On top of that what can also contribute to severe depression is they are unhappy with how their new appearance.


    I'd be suprised if an article by this spammer had much to do with it. He has been blabbing about LGTB people for years. http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/nov/10/1 (first paragraph), and you know what they say about people who continuously talk about such things.
    I think the issue is more to do with the fact that he actively targetted and proceeded to launch into his own musings (and perhaps disregard) on a single individual. Miss Marple is slightly less troublesome; it is a television programme and each person watching will have their own criticisms and praises of it. To turn that gaze toward a specific individual is, of course, another matter entirely.

    And this is precisely what Richard Littlejohn had done.
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    (Original post by ANARCHY__)
    I think this is a tautology, personally. Perhaps people who are transgender kill themselves because society pressures them into it.

    If we accept people who change sex do so because of a biological urge (and not a culturally imposed or societal one), then suggesting people don't change gender is, of course, impossible.

    Although, even if it is environmental, should we really be laissez-faire about the expectations we demand of society? Perhaps we should expect more. Simply put, environmental or no, we should not encourage societal pressure and criticism of a choice (or not) if that change does not exert harm to the society the individual is in, should we not?
    I agree, the mental health problems are almost certainly (but not necessarily exclusively) because of societal pressures. However, as I say, human nature is often pretty awful and is not going to change overnight, so those societal pressures are going to be there well into the future, whether we like that or not. There's no problem with expecting more from people, I'd love to live in a world in which we could rely on people being pro-social and generous and whatnot, but I think that, unfortunately, it's destined to fail. Just as, like I said, there's still racism and prejudice about disabled people, and there will be well into the future. People don't choose their race or their disabilities, so the only option we have there is putting pressure on society to change (and finding out that we probably won't be able to sufficiently change society, but still trying), so that's what we should do. However, when it comes to people making choices about their own bodies, we have another option, we could try and help them to live within the body they have with psychological support and whatever else might be beneficial, rather than assuming that their desires to change body, however strongly and sincerely held, would be best acted upon. In some cases they could be, but in the majority of cases, I think there needs to be a huge amount of caution. There needs to be a significant burden of proof before embarking on anything so serious as that.

    I'd also question your assumption that biological urges can't be controlled. Since puberty, I've had pretty strong sexual urges, but they've not always been fulfilled, because I've not always had the opportunity and haven't wished to become a rapist. The sexual urge is pretty fundamental, so if that can be controlled by environment, any urge could, so far as I see it.

    As for your third point, in an ideal world, society would exert no pressure over the individual, it wouldn't need to; in our world, it does. (I suppose there's an argument that this pressure could be Darwinistically useful, if not always healthy on an individual level, but that's getting into more controversial territory... :/)
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    (Original post by Philbert)
    God, I saw that article and thought it was horrifc. Is it easier to explain to a child that some people are born in the wrong bodies, or that the world is an awful place to people who are perceived to be different and that people kill themselves because of it?
    Commiserations to the victim who commited suicide but...

    People are born into the wrong bodies?

    Surely, apart from the VERY rare cases, you either have two x chromosones, or an x and y. Thus you are either male or female.

    Can you link me to a study which proves beyond doubt this can be the case? (that someone can be born in the wrong body?)

    Is it not subjective?(if we just ask them "what do you feel you are")
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    (Original post by Annie72)
    That is awful and my thoughts are with the family.

    Personally I think that this life is short enough and people should be allowed to dress how they want, love who they want and be the person they are without f****** prejudice from others.
    Yes, but changing your entire sex is more than just being who you want.

    We have to ask, what is the cost of this on the NHS.

    Do they have a moral obligation to tell their futre partners,

    ect
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    (Original post by faber niger)
    I agree, the mental health problems are almost certainly (but not necessarily exclusively) because of societal pressures. However, as I say, human nature is often pretty awful and is not going to change overnight, so those societal pressures are going to be there well into the future, whether we like that or not. There's no problem with expecting more from people, I'd love to live in a world in which we could rely on people being pro-social and generous and whatnot, but I think that, unfortunately, it's destined to fail. Just as, like I said, there's still racism and prejudice about disabled people, and there will be well into the future. People don't choose their race or their disabilities, so the only option we have there is putting pressure on society to change (and finding out that we probably won't be able to sufficiently change society, but still trying), so that's what we should do. However, when it comes to people making choices about their own bodies, we have another option, we could try and help them to live within the body they have with psychological support and whatever else might be beneficial, rather than assuming that their desires to change body, however strongly and sincerely held, would be best acted upon. In some cases they could be, but in the majority of cases, I think there needs to be a huge amount of caution. There needs to be a significant burden of proof before embarking on anything so serious as that.
    I'm not so sure the burden of proof lies so much with them as it does for us. I think there's still a significant amount of research that needs to be done into LGBT changes and choices to determine what is and isn't environmental/genetic. In the case of Miss Meadows, I do not know what to say but I believe that continuing to apply pressure on society to force a change will inevitably see that through. It has happened before with race and I believe it happening somewhat now with sexuality and sex. This, of course, encompasses a wider issue of identity and how we deal with it.
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    (Original post by Kiss)
    If a non-trans/non-gay/anyone who is in the majority had an article published about them in the Daily Mail and committed suicide about it no one would give two ****s.
    If we could tell that the DM had a role in it then I'd give a lot more than two ****s.
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    Richard Littlejohn is bigotted even by Daily Mail standards. Stewart Lee has a good bit on him. I'll find the link a little later.
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    I can't see the distinction in that article between appalling journalism and hate speech.

    Rest in peace, Lucy Meadows.
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    I'm not going to start sharpening the pitchforks ready for Littlejohn just yet. He's an objectionable git that I really despise, but we don't know the circumstances of Lucy Meadows' apparent suicide - it may not have been directly related to the article, so I'm not going to jump to conclusions. But at the same time, it's worth noting that Littlejohn's article, the Mail and its readership should be ashamed for perpetuating this transphobic hate. It's a disgrace that it was ever published in the first place and it's unbelievably trite that they've taken the article down only after her death.

    What's sad is that a woman has felt it necessary to kill herself, and if this has been as a result of transphobia, then this is extremely regrettable in this day and age.
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    well I hope he's proud of himself, he's got blood on his hands now.
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    (Original post by Dirac Delta Function)
    The Daily Mail is vile, and Richard LittleJohn is an utter prick.

    The DM is an atrocious rag, I wish people would just boycott it.
    My parents love the DM, especially Littlejohn. They think he's hilarious. I'm ashamed of them.

    The funny thing is, my mum makes a big deal out of the fact she'd never buy The Sun, but I'd sooner have that in the house than the filth that is the DM.
 
 
 
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