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Trans woman commits suicide after being bullied by the Daily Mail Watch

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    (Original post by Harrow.7)
    totally...but sympathy? maybe if they had obeyed nature, this wouldn't have happened
    Ignore the troll. The suicide of Lucy Meadows is far more important.
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    (Original post by Redolent)
    ...Seriously?
    Yup.
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    (Original post by ANARCHY__)
    Ignore the troll. The suicide of Lucy Meadows is far more important.
    no troll, just my personal viewpoint....
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    (Original post by Harrow.7)
    no troll, just my personal viewpoint....
    Alright. I retract my comment.
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    (Original post by Kiss)
    Yup.
    I'm pretty sure someone being driven to suicide by the media would be big news regardless of who it happened to

    Kate Middleton hospital incident being the obvious example
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    That's so sad. I feel so sorry for her. The article was disgusting, how would it hurt the children in her care's 'innocence'? Maybe those kids would have grown up to be more understanding than the 'journalist' behind that article.
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    (Original post by Harrow.7)
    totally...but sympathy? maybe if they had obeyed nature, this wouldn't have happened
    How does one 'obey' nature?

    What if a person has a neurological disorder - nature has them as one sex, but the neurology of another. Are they supposed to 'obey' their natural outer body, or 'obey' their natural neurology?

    Everyone's always saying that the brain is the most important organ*, so I'm going with that.

    * Although there is the joke of 'the brain is the most important organ, according to the brain'.
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    (Original post by Oldham123)
    Sensible only in that it would avoid tempting the wrath of insensitive and uninformed parents? It seems that no matter how angry a parent was going to get, it wouldn't have mattered, the school seemed incredibly supportive in the face of potential anger. If Richard ****ing Littlejohn spent less time trying to get people he didn't like to kill themselves, then everything would be fine. Transitioning should be able to occur in front of people. It is necessary for people to be confronted before any views will shift. If trans people are forced to complete their transition behind closed doors, then people are "protected" from knowing and one day understanding gender dysporia.

    Furthermore, transitioning is a long process. Are you suggesting that she should have gone unemployed for all that time? That might have been problematic, doubly so considering she had a class of children who would definitely suffer from her absence.

    Finally, gender ISN'T binary, neither is it immutable. People who think it is are wrong, and children who think it is have been done a disservice by parents. The only reasons I can think of as to why a parent wouldn't want their children to know about gender dysporia, or see its effects, are a) in case their child gets ideas and tries the same thing, or b) their children become overly sexualised too early.

    a) This is stupid. Gender dysporia is no more a choice than homosexuality. It doesn't surprise me that people think this though; the exact same happens with homosexuality too.

    b) Learning about gender, and the different ways people identify themselves as, is not a sexual experience. Young children understand that there are girls and boys, mothers and fathers, without becoming sexual. Why would teaching gender as a spectrum of identity, rather than a binary construct, sexualise them? I think this is probably because the people making the decisions about what children come into contact with (the parents) are sexualised (obviously because they're adults), and can conceive of things they class as oddities when it comes to trans people. "Who are they attracted to? Who do they have sex with? Are they still straight afterwards? Or do they descend into depravity and sexual deviancy? I MUST PROTECT MY CHILDREN FROM THIS EVIL!"

    The world needs to grow up.
    This isn't personal but I am afraid this is an excellent example of the attitude I was criticising.

    The children will forget. The parents will move on. Littlejohn will write another offensive article.

    But that teacher will still be dead. Furthermore she is dead because too many people thought it was more important that "It is necessary for people to be confronted before any views will shift" than that an extremely vulnerable person received the advice that was in her best interests.
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    And here was I thinking Richard Littlejohn was such a nice and tolerant individual...

    Not srs, he's a ****ing scumbag. Always has been.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    I love it when people who dont know anything about trans people.. start feeling like they need to raise the 'important issues' :rolleyes:

    What is the cost to the NHS:

    It saves the NHS money!!! (shock..)

    Its been shown, that by treating the transsexual once, with 1 off sugery.. and then HRT therapy.. they can lead normal lives, and be a part of society..

    If you dont treat them, they will most likely, fall into severe mental health issues - and end in a sucide attempt.. -- so you will be funding their mental health care (long term), you will be funding the treatment for their injuries/sucide, you will probably be paying for their benifits, as they fail to cope with life etc..

    If you treat them, then its a fairly small 1 off cost - after that they can lead normal lives.. pay tax back, and contribute like anyone else, probably paying in more, thne they ever costed..

    So.. simple option?
    (this though, ignore sthe moral responsiblity in treating medical conditions)

    -- do they have a obligation to tell future partners? - personally I believe yes, as do most trans people.. but its up to the individual to decide, - though its a completly non-issue.. most trans people still look trans, and always will.. their partner will almost definatly be aware..
    Well anyone wanting any kind of cosmetic surgery that badly can simply do the same.

    There's a body-dysmorphic disorder which a lot of people have.

    Someone can say they are severely depressed because they want a nose job, or skin to be nicer. This can make people withdraw and seek immense ammounts of theraphy as well.

    But the issue is, what scientific evidence is there -beyond any doubt- that this is even the case?

    Why do we not see through all of history groups of people commiting suicide because of this, when there was barely ANY support towards transexuals?

    Meh, until someone prevents me scientific evidence that - beyond all doubt- a man can be born in a womans body, i am very dissapointed this is allowed on the NHS.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    Its nothing to do with their new hormones.

    Im currently undergoing HRT - and have been through the NHS process to get them, and know all the risks assosiated.. HRT does not cause you to kill yourself.. - yes it can kill your libido, but that in itself, does not cause trans people to kill themselves (infact, quite a number of trans people are very un-sexual to begine with)

    For the second part.. yes, even after sugery most trans people are not 100% happy, - but they can still lead normal lives.. - this alone, is unilikely to cause suicide (though it does happen from time to time)

    Most trans people (and your right its alot) - who kill themselves do so out of the position they are put in by society.

    Not being able to walk in public without being abused
    not being able to find jobs, because of how they look
    Not being able to find a partner because of how they are
    Being attacked/shouted at etc..
    Being rejected and kicked out by their family..

    Are the main reasons.. - other things do add to the problem, but they are not usually the cause.
    I watched a documentary and quite a few said that they don't want to go 'pre-op' for whatever reason including enjoying penal sex. So losing their libido due to the hormones can cause depression just like it does in men getting treated to prostate cancer. That was the point I was making, not saying the drugs are directly involved.
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    (Original post by ANARCHY__)
    If anyone reading this article would like to spread this around, feel free.
    I do not think he should be fired, I think the Daily Mail are as much to blame as he, and it is not fair that he should lose his job and they get away scott free, use him to absorb all the punishment. THEY published the article, THEY are the ones pushing an anti-transexual agenda... in all honest this man's article is the lesser of several evils plaguing the DM website, I have seen far worse trans-bashing from them... unfortunately this one ended tragically. Both the DM editors (who probably encouraged the story) and Mr. Littlejohn contributed to his stress and embarassment, a feeling of low self worth, humiliation... however, where do you draw the line? The parents who informed the DM and probably made Lucy's life a living hell? Do we punish them too? The community around him? Maybe his parents or child weren't accepting, which pushed him over the edge?

    We simply don't know, what I do know is that we cannot blame one man, despicable as he is.
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    Killing yourself doesn't make you right. If someone decided to dress as something stupid and continue their job they might suffer ridicule too. Forcing political correctness on the public also fuels these kind of news pieces.
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    (Original post by Bellissima)
    I do not think he should be fired, I think the Daily Mail are as much to blame as he, and it is not fair that he should lose his job and they get away scott free, use him to absorb all the punishment. THEY published the article, THEY are the ones pushing an anti-transexual agenda... in all honest this man's article is the lesser of several evils plaguing the DM website, I have seen far worse trans-bashing from them... unfortunately this one ended tragically. Both the DM editors (who probably encouraged the story) and Mr. Littlejohn contributed to his stress and embarassment, a feeling of low self worth, humiliation... however, where do you draw the line? The parents who informed the parents and probably made Lucy's life a living hell? Do we punish them too? The community around him? Maybe his parents or child weren't accepting, which pushed him over the edge?

    We simply don't know, what I do know is that we cannot blame one man, despicable as he is.
    True. This is why I don't want to add that link to the OP or force anybody to spread that link around. The only reason I posted it was to show that another national newspaper appears to have taken note of the situation. As you rightly say, a line must be drawn and mobbing one individual and demonising him is just as bad as what the Daily Mail has or does do; hence, not a strategy I would recommend in showing distaste of the behaviour encouraged.

    That being said, I do not believe the Daily Mail should be viewed without blame. And I do believe that those who feel strongly about it should vocalise their opinions. I think the most appropriate course of action or form of expression is, therefore, to simply not interact with the paper or to not purchase copies of it for whatever time people deem necessary.
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    (Original post by Coffinman)
    Killing yourself doesn't make you right. If someone decided to dress as something stupid and continue their job they might suffer ridicule too. Forcing political correctness on the public also fuels these kind of news pieces.
    You're acting as though it was her fault that she suffered ridicule. It's not like dressing as something stupid, because she never asked for this. You think she wanted all the difficulties? You don't think she would have lived a man if she was one and could?

    Transsexuality is a real condition that is not changeable. The only way to make one's life livable is to transition to the opposite sex - the sex that your neurology is already at.

    Although, in situations of prejudice and discrimination, not even that is enough to keep someone alive.

    Political correctness gone too far =/= acknowledging the existence of a disorder.
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    (Original post by MENDACIUM)
    Well anyone wanting any kind of cosmetic surgery that badly can simply do the same.

    There's a body-dysmorphic disorder which a lot of people have.

    Someone can say they are severely depressed because they want a nose job, or skin to be nicer. This can make people withdraw and seek immense ammounts of theraphy as well.

    But the issue is, what scientific evidence is there -beyond any doubt- that this is even the case?

    Why do we not see through all of history groups of people commiting suicide because of this, when there was barely ANY support towards transexuals?

    Meh, until someone prevents me scientific evidence that - beyond all doubt- a man can be born in a womans body, i am very dissapointed this is allowed on the NHS.
    The current scientific opinion is that it is neurological (Reviews: Swaab, 2004; Gooren, 2006).

    Then it's known that it's mostly genetic (Coolidge, Thede, & Young, 2002). As I've said earlier in the thread, there are significant problems with this study in that it's not actually testing for transsexuality, but any minor gender issues, which isn't the same thing. But anyway,

    Body dysmorphia disorder (BDD) is a very different thing. It's associated with eating disorders and social phobia. It can be overcome with Cognitive Behavioural Therapy or just positive affirmations that their 'defects' are not issues. It's often about things like skin conditions, which they think other people will judge them about.

    Transsexuality isn't like that. It's not about thinking you are judged or bad-looking or thinking you'd look better as the other sex. A trans man would rather be an ugly, fat, balding, acne-ridden male than a female model. Transsexuality isn't about hating yourself in the body dysmorphic way. Transitioning is a radical act of self love.

    Transsexuality is about a disconnect with your body, because your brain is 'set' to one sex. It expects certain characteristics, in an intrinsic biological way that is absent to BDD. BDD can be dealt with by therapy, that's why they don't get surgery. Inability to deal with their body is an effect of a psychological and treatable cause. Unless you know exact what parts of the brain is responsible and how to do the brain surgery for it, there's no such treatable cause for transsexuality. The only thing you can do is match the body to the brain as best as possible. It's not perfect, but it means that they can keep functioning.

    Why do you not see it all through history? Ask the same of any disorder that is rare, 'invisible', and not well understood.
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    (Original post by MENDACIUM)
    Well anyone wanting any kind of cosmetic surgery that badly can simply do the same.

    'wanting it badly' - doesnt even begin to cover the feelings of gender identity disorder... If you just 'wanted it badly' - then the NHS would turn you away, and you would get nothing..

    There's a body-dysmorphic disorder which a lot of people have.

    body-dysmoprhic disorder, is very different from gender dyshporia, and can usually be treated by non-cosmetic means, or therapy/councelling..

    Someone can say they are severely depressed because they want a nose job, or skin to be nicer. This can make people withdraw and seek immense ammounts of theraphy as well.

    But the issue is, what scientific evidence is there -beyond any doubt- that this is even the case?

    'beyond any doubt' - your aware right, that most mental health issues, are not proved beyond all doubt? yet we cant just stop treating them, we simply go on the best evidence/research/theories that we currently have. If you like,you can do the research into transsexuality, and you will see that most of it points to the way the DSM-V and then NHS and the international bodies for transgnedder care, treat patients.

    Why do we not see through all of history groups of people commiting suicide because of this, when there was barely ANY support towards transexuals?

    who is to say they havent? ofcourse it could never be proved.. but trans people only make up 0.3% of the population... if that small an amount, were tradigcally unhappy and mentally unwell.. they probably would have just died away, either by their means.. or others - 0.3% wouldnt have even made a dent on death figures in the past,,?

    Similar with people with severe mental health problems... - likelyhood is they always exsisted, but that doesnt mean you can go into a history book and see 'X number of people with schizophrenia commit suicide' - instead they would have just died away quietly, as they failed to cope with everything with society..


    Meh, until someone prevents me scientific evidence that - beyond all doubt- a man can be born in a womans body, i am very dissapointed this is allowed on the NHS.
    so in your eyes, untill there is 100% proof (which may never happen) - you would rather see:

    Many many people die,
    The NHS be left will a bill of millions, due to treating these peoples life-long mental issues, and suicide attempts
    The goverment left with a bill of having to support some of these people..

    Instead of:

    A simple sugery...
    Little cost to the NHS,
    They then pay tax back, to cover their sugery/contribute to society

    I honestly can not believe anyone would want the first, - even taking away the principle.. on a purely financial level, its stupid.
    see bold bits..
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    The current scientific opinion is that it is neurological (Reviews: Swaab, 2004; Gooren, 2006).

    Then it's known that it's mostly genetic (Coolidge, Thede, & Young, 2002). As I've said earlier in the thread, there are significant problems with this study in that it's not actually testing for transsexuality, but any minor gender issues, which isn't the same thing. But anyway,

    Body dysmorphia disorder (BDD) is a very different thing. It's associated with eating disorders and social phobia. It can be overcome with Cognitive Behavioural Therapy or just positive affirmations that their 'defects' are not issues. It's often about things like skin conditions, which they think other people will judge them about.

    Transsexuality isn't like that. It's not about thinking you are judged or bad-looking or thinking you'd look better as the other sex. A trans man would rather be an ugly, fat, balding, acne-ridden male than a female model. Transsexuality isn't about hating yourself in the body dysmorphic way. Transitioning is a radical act of self love.

    Transsexuality is about a disconnect with your body, because your brain is 'set' to one sex. It expects certain characteristics, in an intrinsic biological way that is absent to BDD. BDD can be dealt with by therapy, that's why they don't get surgery. Inability to deal with their body is an effect of a psychological and treatable cause. Unless you know exact what parts of the brain is responsible and how to do the brain surgery for it, there's no such treatable cause for transsexuality. The only thing you can do is match the body to the brain as best as possible. It's not perfect, but it means that they can keep functioning.

    Why do you not see it all through history? Ask the same of any disorder that is rare, 'invisible', and not well understood.
    just perfect!
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    The current scientific opinion is that it is neurological (Reviews: Swaab, 2004; Gooren, 2006).

    Then it's known that it's mostly genetic (Coolidge, Thede, & Young, 2002). As I've said earlier in the thread, there are significant problems with this study in that it's not actually testing for transsexuality, but any minor gender issues, which isn't the same thing. But anyway,

    Body dysmorphia disorder (BDD) is a very different thing. It's associated with eating disorders and social phobia. It can be overcome with Cognitive Behavioural Therapy or just positive affirmations that their 'defects' are not issues. It's often about things like skin conditions, which they think other people will judge them about.

    Transsexuality isn't like that. It's not about thinking you are judged or bad-looking or thinking you'd look better as the other sex. A trans man would rather be an ugly, fat, balding, acne-ridden male than a female model. Transsexuality isn't about hating yourself in the body dysmorphic way. Transitioning is a radical act of self love.

    Transsexuality is about a disconnect with your body, because your brain is 'set' to one sex. It expects certain characteristics, in an intrinsic biological way that is absent to BDD. BDD can be dealt with by therapy, that's why they don't get surgery. Inability to deal with their body is an effect of a psychological and treatable cause. Unless you know exact what parts of the brain is responsible and how to do the brain surgery for it, there's no such treatable cause for transsexuality. The only thing you can do is match the body to the brain as best as possible. It's not perfect, but it means that they can keep functioning.

    Why do you not see it all through history? Ask the same of any disorder that is rare, 'invisible', and not well understood.
    I am open minded. Is there irrefutable scientific evidence that your brain can actually be set to one sex? Can i have a link from a reputable scientific , hi-lighting this?
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    (Original post by lightburns)
    How does one 'obey' nature?

    What if a person has a neurological disorder - nature has them as one sex, but the neurology of another. Are they supposed to 'obey' their natural outer body, or 'obey' their natural neurology?

    Everyone's always saying that the brain is the most important organ*, so I'm going with that.

    * Although there is the joke of 'the brain is the most important organ, according to the brain'.
    Firstly, we have to establish if this can even be the case, and if it is backed up with irrefutable and solid scientific evidence.

    If someone is born with an XY Chromosone, their brains are wired to be able to register an erection via their genital organs, produce testosterone , produce sperm, (parts in the brain responsible for hormone release) ect.

    So i am trying to decipher exactly how ones brain can be in the 'wrong' body.

    I just think any sort of conclusion based on someone 'feeling' they are a woman or man is very subjective. I'd need to look at more evidence before making any conclusions though.

    + If we allow transexuals to go through this change, it would mean eventually they would be 'extinct'. A woman turning into a man surely can not produce sperm - for that you'd need to basically change her DNA (impossible to change the sex of the DNA of the adult, and then all of the other genetic material connected).

    This basically means transexuals won't have kids, will then die of as well.

    + This is all under the assumption that any of this is genetic or due to the brain, something i am waiting for clear evidence on.

    But, i feel the numbers will only grow, and IF there is an absence of solid scientific evidence, where everything is vague, people will just assert more are 'coming out'.
 
 
 
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