Trans woman commits suicide after being bullied by the Daily Mail
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Considering the author is arguably more responsible for this poor woman's death than those Australian radio presenters were for the nurse's, can we expect a **** storm of a similar size? No? I thought not...
Original post by coconut2456
Considering the author is arguably more responsible for this poor woman's death than those Australian radio presenters were for the nurse's, can we expect a **** storm of a similar size? No? I thought not...
That was a nurse , in a hospital, which looked after Kate Middleton. It was also a prank-call. These are hot-fire topics.
The media exists to attract attention whilst trying to sell accurate(or biased) news.
Original post by MENDACIUM
Firstly, we have to establish if this can even be the case, and if it is backed up with irrefutable and solid scientific evidence.
If someone is born with an XY Chromosone, their brains are wired to be able to register an erection via their genital organs, produce testosterone , produce sperm, (parts in the brain responsible for hormone release) ect.
So i am trying to decipher exactly how ones brain can be in the 'wrong' body.
I just think any sort of conclusion based on someone 'feeling' they are a woman or man is very subjective. I'd need to look at more evidence before making any conclusions though.
+ If we allow transexuals to go through this change, it would mean eventually they would be 'extinct'. A woman turning into a man surely can not produce sperm - for that you'd need to basically change her DNA (impossible to change the sex of the DNA of the adult, and then all of the other genetic material connected).
This basically means transexuals won't have kids, will then die of as well.
+ This is all under the assumption that any of this is genetic or due to the brain, something i am waiting for clear evidence on.
If someone is born with an XY Chromosone, their brains are wired to be able to register an erection via their genital organs, produce testosterone , produce sperm, (parts in the brain responsible for hormone release) ect.
So i am trying to decipher exactly how ones brain can be in the 'wrong' body.
I just think any sort of conclusion based on someone 'feeling' they are a woman or man is very subjective. I'd need to look at more evidence before making any conclusions though.
+ If we allow transexuals to go through this change, it would mean eventually they would be 'extinct'. A woman turning into a man surely can not produce sperm - for that you'd need to basically change her DNA (impossible to change the sex of the DNA of the adult, and then all of the other genetic material connected).
This basically means transexuals won't have kids, will then die of as well.
+ This is all under the assumption that any of this is genetic or due to the brain, something i am waiting for clear evidence on.
Its not genetic in the sense that a transsexual has to be born to another transexual..
I have never researched into whether or not it is a genetic trait, and in my mind I always presumed it wasnt, but the other poster is much more equipped to respond properly..
As far as I have been told (by very experianced doctors, who have devoted their life to treating and learning about how our brain/gender work..) Its usually believed to be caused by some defect in early brain development.. from the womb to about 6months.. things like a hormonal imbalence, imporper diet, being exposed to something etc.. in those first few months, then causes the brain to develop incorrectly..
Thats just what ive been told though, all be it by very reuptable sources (doctors and academics)
I would point out one thing.. which is that you keep asking for proof, and 100% evidence,
In reality, this does not exist, as with most studies relating to how our brain functions, so little is fully 100% understood.. that you are unlikely to find concrete evidence about any mental condition, let alone such a small one as Gender dyshporia..
Does the lack of 100% proof mean we should stop treating 10s of thousands of patients though? who without this treatment, would struggle to cope with a normal life, and most likely take thier own lives?
Or should we treat them, so that they can function in a normal society?
I dont see any arguement for the first?
Original post by MENDACIUM
That was a nurse , in a hospital, which looked after Kate Middleton. It was also a prank-call. These are hot-fire topics.
The media exists to attract attention whilst trying to sell accurate(or biased) news.
The media exists to attract attention whilst trying to sell accurate(or biased) news.
Well yeah, hence why I said this won't receive nearly as much attention...
Original post by fallen_acorns
Its not genetic in the sense that a transsexual has to be born to another transexual..
I have never researched into whether or not it is a genetic trait, and in my mind I always presumed it wasnt, but the other poster is much more equipped to respond properly..
As far as I have been told (by very experianced doctors, who have devoted their life to treating and learning about how our brain/gender work..) Its usually believed to be caused by some defect in early brain development.. from the womb to about 6months.. things like a hormonal imbalence, imporper diet, being exposed to something etc.. in those first few months, then causes the brain to develop incorrectly..
Thats just what ive been told though, all be it by very reuptable sources (doctors and academics)
I would point out one thing.. which is that you keep asking for proof, and 100% evidence,
In reality, this does not exist, as with most studies relating to how our brain functions, so little is fully 100% understood.. that you are unlikely to find concrete evidence about any mental condition, let alone such a small one as Gender dyshporia..
Does the lack of 100% proof mean we should stop treating 10s of thousands of patients though? who without this treatment, would struggle to cope with a normal life, and most likely take thier own lives?
Or should we treat them, so that they can function in a normal society?
I dont see any arguement for the first?
I have never researched into whether or not it is a genetic trait, and in my mind I always presumed it wasnt, but the other poster is much more equipped to respond properly..
As far as I have been told (by very experianced doctors, who have devoted their life to treating and learning about how our brain/gender work..) Its usually believed to be caused by some defect in early brain development.. from the womb to about 6months.. things like a hormonal imbalence, imporper diet, being exposed to something etc.. in those first few months, then causes the brain to develop incorrectly..
Thats just what ive been told though, all be it by very reuptable sources (doctors and academics)
I would point out one thing.. which is that you keep asking for proof, and 100% evidence,
In reality, this does not exist, as with most studies relating to how our brain functions, so little is fully 100% understood.. that you are unlikely to find concrete evidence about any mental condition, let alone such a small one as Gender dyshporia..
Does the lack of 100% proof mean we should stop treating 10s of thousands of patients though? who without this treatment, would struggle to cope with a normal life, and most likely take thier own lives?
Or should we treat them, so that they can function in a normal society?
I dont see any arguement for the first?
I don't mind it when someone honestly states the lack of evidence, i just want to -for my own interest- know if there is.
As an estimate, how many transexuals are there, do most respond badly to physcotheraphy ect?
I'm just worried about one thing: How will a prospective partner know that they are transexual, if it's well-hidden?
Original post by MENDACIUM
I am open minded. Is there irrefutable scientific evidence that your brain can actually be set to one sex? Can i have a link from a reputable scientific , hi-lighting this?
I am open-minded to this being wrong, as one should be in science. The Swaab and Gooren things I referenced were reviews of the literature that concluded that scientific evidence supports the neurological model as the cause of transsexuality. I can't give you a source that says "yes, this is definitely the answer!", because that source does not exist. Such is the way of science. We don't have to delay our own consideration til it's near certainty, by the way. The best conclusion to make is the same as the reviews: based on the evidence, this is the most likely cause, therefore acts on e.g. treatment should be made assuming that it is true, with an open mind to conflicting evidence and the possibility to overturn this view.
So it's known that it's a big part down to genetics, and that there are brain differences. That's a near certainty. The exact causational model, however, is just a based-on-the-current-evidence thing.
Original post by MENDACIUM
Firstly, we have to establish if this can even be the case, and if it is backed up with irrefutable and solid scientific evidence.
If someone is born with an XY Chromosone, their brains are wired to be able to register an erection via their genital organs, produce testosterone , produce sperm, (parts in the brain responsible for hormone release) ect.
So i am trying to decipher exactly how ones brain can be in the 'wrong' body.
If someone is born with an XY Chromosone, their brains are wired to be able to register an erection via their genital organs, produce testosterone , produce sperm, (parts in the brain responsible for hormone release) ect.
So i am trying to decipher exactly how ones brain can be in the 'wrong' body.
You'd do well to read up about intersex conditions. I know it's not the same thing, but it'll show you how bits and pieces of the body can be sexed in opposition to the rest. You can have XY chromosomes, and breasts. If you so think that chromosomes are the be all and end all, how about Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome - outer genitalia and all is female, but XY chromosomes. Or, de la Chapelle Syndromerile - a male with XX chromosomes, and there may be no other signs until he tries to have kids and that's the answer for his infertility.
I just think any sort of conclusion based on someone 'feeling' they are a woman or man is very subjective. I'd need to look at more evidence before making any conclusions though.
No, I agree. Someone 'feeling' something adds nothing. I know that's a controversial statement in itself due to the identity politics going about at the moment, but I don't buy it. There's people who 'feel' that they are cats, dragons and wolves (otherkin), or different ethnicities (transethnic) or other crazy things. Presumably, there'll be some people 'feeling' that they are the other gender in the same way, without actually being transsexual. No, you don't get to be what you want to be because you self-define as it and 'feel' like it.
Transsexuality I would place differently, due to the studies showing average brain differences. Another thing is the absolute inability for therapy to work - if it was a psychologically caused 'feeling' and nothing else, then therapy should be able to help. It doesn't.
+ If we allow transexuals to go through this change, it would mean eventually they would be 'extinct'. A woman turning into a man surely can not produce sperm - for that you'd need to basically change her DNA (impossible to change the sex of the DNA of the adult, and then all of the other genetic material connected).
This basically means transexuals won't have kids, will then die of as well.
This basically means transexuals won't have kids, will then die of as well.
Unfortunately, many medical conditions persevere, even without the people who come out with it carrying on their genes. There isn't a single gene for transsexuality, like the vast majority of disorders. Someone with the disorder is obviously passing on a greater chunk, causing their descendants to have a greater likelihood of having the disorder. But other disorders still exist, right, even the ones that make you infertile? That's because, unfortunately, they carry on due to those who carry the gene sets but don't have the disorder.
It gets worse though - don't think that eugenics could even help for many of them. It isn't that one gene codes for this, one gene for that. Each gene has an additive effect, with the overall picture being created from them. This means that the same genes that are responsible for wanting social interaction, or being hard-working, or feeling fear at dangerous stimuli, could be partially responsible for disorders. In other words, it's impossible to breed these out.
Transsexuality has another thing added to the puzzle. Monozygotic (identical) twins have a high-ish concordance rate. Dizygotic (non-identical) twins are almost impossible to find both being transsexual. Heylens et al. (2012) found it at 39.1% v.s. 0%. You can see now why the Coolidge et al. (2002) I said about earlier used wider criteria - it's rare! Good luck finding concordance in DZ twins otherwise.
What does this mean? All those genes I said, that had an additive effect? This is why it's so rare... Disorders tend to just need it to go over a threshold. Oh, you have this many of the genes? Time to give you schizophrenia or whatever. With some disorders, like transsexuality, it would seem that you need the entirety of the gene set - so a DZ twin with 50% of their sibling's DNA is not going to be transsexual, because they are very very unlikely to both have that entire gene-set. The MZ twin, however, has the identical gene-set. People can be reproducing all over the place with almost full gene sets for the disorder, and just because a couple come out with the full gene set does not stop all the almost-complete sets reproducing everywhere, carrying on the disorder.
+ This is all under the assumption that any of this is genetic or due to the brain, something i am waiting for clear evidence on.
Actually, this one I've already done. The exact mechanics are not yet known, but the studies that I have linked show that it there are brain differences, and that the majority of variance is due to genetics.
But, i feel the numbers will only grow, and IF there is an absence of solid scientific evidence, where everything is vague, people will just assert more are 'coming out'.
I've got a lot of hope for the genome sequencing thing. Within 5 years, it's expected that EVERYONE will start having their entire genome sequenced. This means that finally large-scale studies will be possible - rare disorders will win out, getting resources that they've never had access to. It's all very well for well-funded schizophrenia researchers, but the little disorders don't get that amount of input. Soon, we'll know a lot better.
Original post by MENDACIUM
I don't mind it when someone honestly states the lack of evidence, i just want to -for my own interest- know if there is.
As an estimate, how many transexuals are there, do most respond badly to physcotheraphy ect?
I'm just worried about one thing: How will a prospective partner know that they are transexual, if it's well-hidden?
As an estimate, how many transexuals are there, do most respond badly to physcotheraphy ect?
I'm just worried about one thing: How will a prospective partner know that they are transexual, if it's well-hidden?
estimates vary hugely from 0.1-0.7% of the population..
Numbers in the 10s of thousands.
how many respond to psychotherpay.. none.
No one who is truely transgender, will be cured by psychotherpay, it has never been shown to work..
It should be noted, you have to see a psychotherapist many times, before you are allowed treatment with the NHS.. but this isn't to try and cure you, but rather check you are ready for, and fully need the treatment..
Believe me, if it could be fixed with psychotherapy, then that would be standard practise... and I would be so so happy!
Original post by MENDACIUM
I don't mind it when someone honestly states the lack of evidence, i just want to -for my own interest- know if there is.
As an estimate, how many transexuals are there, do most respond badly to physcotheraphy ect?
I'm just worried about one thing: How will a prospective partner know that they are transexual, if it's well-hidden?
As an estimate, how many transexuals are there, do most respond badly to physcotheraphy ect?
I'm just worried about one thing: How will a prospective partner know that they are transexual, if it's well-hidden?
1 in 30,000 'males' and 1 in 100,000 'females' seek sex reassignment surgery. For comparisons sake, 1 in 20,000 females have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (including XY chromosomes), and 1 in 100 are schizohrenic. Suffice to say, transsexuality is rare.
I don't know how many people seek help for what would be essentially dysmorphic issues about sexed parts. For example, I have seen people consider themselves trans men because they had misshapen breasts or such and didn't like them - dysmorphia over sexed body-parts =/= dysphoria over sexed body-parts.
Dysphorics (i.e. transsexuals), basically by definition, don't respond to therapy. If you respond to therapy, it's a psychological cause (BDD, not transsexuality), and that's all that's needed. If you're dysphoric, however, you need to go onto have medical interventions, because it doesn't work.
Prospective partners... People haven't disclosed to partners even in sexual relationships whilst they are pre-op! A partner may not know. However, a couple of recent cases where teens have had sexual relationships without disclosing their gender status has put them behind bars for several years (i.e. about the same amount of time some murderers get). Yes, these were cases where I'd say they did wrong (e.g. does a person who consents to a penis consent to a strap-on without their knowledge? I'm not sure they do, which would make that sexual assault), but it does set an unnerving precedent as to what would happen if a post-op person did not disclose.
Original post by fallen_acorns
Believe me, if it could be fixed with psychotherapy, then that would be standard practise... and I would be so so happy!
I so agree. It annoys me when someone asks me "so why did you want to be a boy?". I didn't.
I wasn't a girl who wanted to be a boy, quite the opposite. I was a boy who wanted to be a girl.
I would have done anything - anything - to just be female.
Original post by lightburns
I so agree. It annoys me when someone asks me "so why did you want to be a boy?". I didn't.
I wasn't a girl who wanted to be a boy, quite the opposite. I was a boy who wanted to be a girl.
I would have done anything - anything - to just be female.
I wasn't a girl who wanted to be a boy, quite the opposite. I was a boy who wanted to be a girl.
I would have done anything - anything - to just be female.
same
Being a transexual just isn't normal. I don't think anyone should kill themselves over it but it just isn't normal...
Like I can tolerate it, if it's plausible, and you don't look like a man, or go parading it round that "oh my gosh, im a man dressed as a women." That's when people judge. Like flamboyant gays; which are possible the most annoying group of people on this planet.
Like I can tolerate it, if it's plausible, and you don't look like a man, or go parading it round that "oh my gosh, im a man dressed as a women." That's when people judge. Like flamboyant gays; which are possible the most annoying group of people on this planet.
Original post by hafzaaa
The Daily Mail is read by mentally retarded people, they are all racist too. Seriously go to any story and find the 'best rated' comment and you will be shocked.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
What a stupid generalisation. Besides I'll bet my bottom dollar that you yourself have read it before...
Original post by hafzaaa
The Daily Mail is read by mentally retarded people, they are all racist too. Seriously go to any story and find the 'best rated' comment and you will be shocked.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
What a stupid generalisation. Besides I'll bet my bottom dollar that you yourself have read it before...
Original post by hafzaaa
The Daily Mail is read by mentally retarded people, they are all racist too. Seriously go to any story and find the 'best rated' comment and you will be shocked.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
See 'worst rated' comment and you will see excatly what I mean.
So really I am not suprised.
Most of the arrows up have been supporting the transgender person, most of the arrows down have been the ones who were slamming her.
Original post by lightburns
You're acting as though it was her fault that she suffered ridicule. It's not like dressing as something stupid, because she never asked for this. You think she wanted all the difficulties? You don't think she would have lived a man if she was one and could?
Transsexuality is a real condition that is not changeable. The only way to make one's life livable is to transition to the opposite sex - the sex that your neurology is already at.
Although, in situations of prejudice and discrimination, not even that is enough to keep someone alive.
Political correctness gone too far =/= acknowledging the existence of a disorder.
Transsexuality is a real condition that is not changeable. The only way to make one's life livable is to transition to the opposite sex - the sex that your neurology is already at.
Although, in situations of prejudice and discrimination, not even that is enough to keep someone alive.
Political correctness gone too far =/= acknowledging the existence of a disorder.
Where did I say it was her fault for ridicule? The point I made if we were to treat the situation in any other circumstance there wouldn't be this sympathetic reaction.
Original post by cl_steele
What a stupid generalisation. Besides I'll bet my bottom dollar that you yourself have read it before...
No she's 1000% correct, it's a paper that promotes fear, xenephobia, racism, I could go on. Only a ****ing idiot would buy it/read it online and keep it in business.
(edited 11 years ago)
Original post by S4LM4N
No she's 1000% correct, it's a paper that promotes fear, xenephobia, racism, I could go on. Only a ****ing idiot would buy it/read it online and keep it in business.
Yet everyone more or less on this forum seems to do just that whenever they link the articles on it...
The majority of DM commenters are ignorant and do not know what they type stating things like "GM crops are wrong, leave them as nature intended" without any evidence and basing it on theory THEY THINK THEY KNOW.
Global warming (debatable, although there is clearly something going on).
Being actively against gay marriage because it goes against "traditional" british values.
The list of stupidity goes on...
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and relate even the most distant things to politics/bankers...
Global warming (debatable, although there is clearly something going on).
Being actively against gay marriage because it goes against "traditional" british values.
The list of stupidity goes on...
EDIT:
Oh yeah, and relate even the most distant things to politics/bankers...
(edited 11 years ago)
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