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Is there an alternative to money Watch

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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    This is exactly the way of doing things I had thought of myself. Thanks for posting the link.
    I like the example that they gave of this in action during WW2. When money was not a consideration just stopping ourselves being invaded. Resources of materials and labour were mobilised and expansion happened (albeit with weapons and supplies) very quickly.
    Perhaps when we realise that we are the victims of the New World Order, we'll do it again.
    Thanks but it was not me who posted the article.
    It is very interesting to see what we can achieve when we all work together.
    Unfortunately without a compelling reason such as threat of invasion etc. we all tend to go our own ways.
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    (Original post by Ex Death)
    I can't really be bothered to explain in massive detail right now but I will direct you to a thread I made about it on another forum I post on.

    http://www.teamquitter.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29691

    Also watch a free film on youtube called Zeitgeist Addendum (this is a sequel in a 'Zeitgeist' series - I wouldn't bother watching the first one as it delves into conspiracy theory and the fallaciousnes of religion which everyone know about anyway).

    It's not 21st century communism because people have no need to work because of automation. As for food, there already is enough food available to feed the entire world (global food wastage figures are shocking). It is the distribution of food which is at fault ie. a problem with money/capitalism and more fundamentally human greed.
    Thank you - sounds like it would take a couple of decades to reach that stage of automation though :/
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    That doesn't sound like an alternative to money, that sounds more like a different way of paying people. I.e. everyone gets an identical hourly rate regardless of what their job is or how good they are at it. And it would mean the cost of any goods or services would be based purely on the number of man hours it took to produce/provide.

    I don't see how you could enforce such a system.
    I would suggest that all goods are free, so no hourly rate. People would just do the work necessary. Unpopular or difficult jobs would require a lower proportion of hours.
    This is where it would lead
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    (Original post by Thomas2)
    Thanks but it was not me who posted the article.
    It is very interesting to see what we can achieve when we all work together.
    Unfortunately without a compelling reason such as threat of invasion etc. we all tend to go our own ways.
    I think it more correct to say we only go as far our own way as the present society allows.
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    (Original post by Nice.Guy)
    Thank you - sounds like it would take a couple of decades to reach that stage of automation though :/
    That measure of time relates to the current situation, because we compete rather than pooling knowledge and resources. Cooperation would speed up the process dramatically. At the moment we have to wait around for someone with the finance to decide to do it. By just getting on with without waiting, we move ahead much more rapidly.
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    Fairy dust.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Given the mess the financial world is in, are their any workable alternatives to money?
    Hypothetically, yes.

    Practically no, even in a barter system the desire to profit is still there because it is innate in human nature ("greed is good"), eventually you would develop a common currency with which to value things and hence you once again have money.

    The only way any of these hippy dippy communist fantasies work is if humans no longer have the desire to progress and consume only what they need, i for one want to die on another planet and so i will never settle for the human race stagnating.

    (Original post by pinnacle)
    bitcoin?
    What do you buy bitcoins with? What is Bitcoin (a currency). It's simply a form of money not backed by the state.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Could we not exchange man hours of productivity for the things we need?
    The main problem with the money system now is that there is little relation between productivity and reward.
    How would that work? My business might be coal mining, and yours might be providing education. 1) You can't equate my man-hours of productivity to yours (although you could argue that the market might settle on a ratio - there are further problems with this, though, which I expand on below) and 2) my actually completing x hours of coal mining is of zero use to a school or university. Payment would have to take the form of a contract to complete services at some future time when required, if indeed they ever were required. You would only be able to obtain things or services from people who needed yours, or needed something which you could obtain from someone else who needed what you could produce, and so on.

    One of the bigger problems with this is that the value of everything would just be relative to everything else - there would be no single unit of value against which everything could be measured. Unless you fix one, in which case you've just created a new type of currency. This relativistic market would be a serious impediment to transactions, as every exchange would have to be negotiated in a much more ad hoc way rather than referring to universal monetary market values. You would have to determine a different 'market value' in terms of every single type of productivity which anyone might engage in.
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    Finger print system the Babylonians and Chinese used?
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    magic beans
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    I don't think there is one, really. The world has become too large and interlinked for a barter system to be practical, and resource distribution would be exceedingly difficult to carry out without some sort of monetary system.

    The Venus Project essentially proposes that we all submit ourselves to an automated dictatorship; frankly, that doesn't sound particularly enticing.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    How would that work? My business might be coal mining, and yours might be providing education. 1) You can't equate my man-hours of productivity to yours (although you could argue that the market might settle on a ratio - there are further problems with this, though, which I expand on below)
    The business would not be owned it would simply be run by the people working there. Man hours would be based on the number of people required. skill level, popularity of the jobs and productivity. An individual would work the necessary number to meet their chosen requirements.

    and 2) my actually completing x hours of coal mining is of zero use to a school or university. Payment would have to take the form of a contract to complete services at some future time when required, if indeed they ever were required. You would only be able to obtain things or services from people who needed yours, or needed something which you could obtain from someone else who needed what you could produce, and so on.
    You would not need to make any exchange with the university. You would simply have the entitlement to goods/services relating to your chosen manhours.
    The people at the university would be putting in their man hours. This removes the need for any exchange.[/QUOTE]

    One of the bigger problems with this is that the value of everything would just be relative to everything else - there would be no single unit of value against which everything could be measured. Unless you fix one, in which case you've just created a new type of currency. This relativistic market would be a serious impediment to transactions, as every exchange would have to be negotiated in a much more ad hoc way rather than referring to universal monetary market values. You would have to determine a different 'market value' in terms of every single type of productivity which anyone might engage in.
    We currently have prices for absolutely everything based on profit, which change frequently.
    The calculation of value of things would be used to adjust man hours, and to best use resources. Each item would be calculated exactly on - manhours required, availability and use of resources, environmental impact and durability. Once calculated this would only need to be changed (no inflation) if their was an improvement in any of these factors.
    Production and services would be adjusted to meet demand.
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    (Original post by subspace5000)
    I don't think there is one, really. The world has become too large and interlinked for a barter system to be practical, and resource distribution would be exceedingly difficult to carry out without some sort of monetary system.

    The Venus Project essentially proposes that we all submit ourselves to an automated dictatorship; frankly, that doesn't sound particularly enticing.
    How is it a dictatorship when there is no one in charge? It is a one level organisation.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Hypothetically, yes.

    Practically no, even in a barter system the desire to profit is still there because it is innate in human nature ("greed is good"), eventually you would develop a common currency with which to value things and hence you once again have money.
    Greed is good is not innate human nature, it is learned and only by the easily taught.
    The only way any of these hippy dippy communist fantasies work is if humans no longer have the desire to progress and consume only what they need, i for one want to die on another planet and so i will never settle for the human race stagnating.
    The Venus Project is all about progression. The current system severely curtails progression, by restricting it to only those with the money to do it, rather than the will to do it.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    You would not need to make any exchange with the university. You would simply have the entitlement to goods/services relating to your chosen manhours.
    The people at the university would be putting in their man hours. This removes the need for any exchange.
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the difference between this and money is that when you "spend" your hours, they don't get transferred to the person or organisation you are receiving services from. It's just an entitlement to those services. How would you track how many hours someone has worked? Would this require a huge government database to record how many hours everyone has worked?

    You said good would be free, so presumably that means people can "buy" things without banking any "hours" by doing work. But in order to produce those goods, someone will have had to put some time into it. So surely even goods should cost something, the difference being the cost is based purely on the amount of time people have put into producing it.

    Also how would you define "work" that awards you "hours" to spend? If I sat playing video games all day and recording it to put on youtube, would that count as work? I'm providing entertainment for people. Maybe only a few people would be entertained by it, but the economy is based purely on hours worked rather than your actual productivity and quality of your work.
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, the difference between this and money is that when you "spend" your hours, they don't get transferred to the person or organisation you are receiving services from. It's just an entitlement to those services. How would you track how many hours someone has worked? Would this require a huge government database to record how many hours everyone has worked?
    Each area would record the hours. Relatively easy with today's computer technology.
    Man hours accumilated would have two levels. The first would cover basic needs like housing, food clothing, normal consumer goods. The second luxuries, basically any additional requirements people had.

    You said good would be free, so presumably that means people can "buy" things without banking any "hours" by doing work. But in order to produce those goods, someone will have had to put some time into it. So surely even goods should cost something, the difference being the cost is based purely on the amount of time people have put into producing it.
    The basic level would be free. People would just be given what they need from what was produced. The Basic requirement of hours would be related to the manhours it takes to produce them. The second level would relate to the production of optional extras, The number of extra manhours would equate to manhours it takes to produce these extras and would need to be recorded individually (similar to money but with the profit element irradicated).

    Also how would you define "work" that awards you "hours" to spend? If I sat playing video games all day and recording it to put on youtube, would that count as work? I'm providing entertainment for people. Maybe only a few people would be entertained by it, but the economy is based purely on hours worked rather than your actual productivity and quality of your work.
    It would relate to productivity - ie the more people you entertain the higher the value of your productivity.
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    (Original post by Aliccam)
    Each area would record the hours. Relatively easy with today's computer technology.
    Man hours accumilated would have two levels. The first would cover basic needs like housing, food clothing, normal consumer goods. The second luxuries, basically any additional requirements people had.
    How would you prevent abuse though? What's to stop someone logging more hours than they've done? And what's to stop someone just not putting much effort in when they are technically working?

    (Original post by Aliccam)
    The basic level would be free. People would just be given what they need from what was produced. The Basic requirement of hours would be related to the manhours it takes to produce them. The second level would relate to the production of optional extras, The number of extra manhours would equate to manhours it takes to produce these extras and would need to be recorded individually (similar to money but with the profit element irradicated).
    I'm not quite clear on that. So would basic food be free? As in you do not have to do any work to get it?

    (Original post by Aliccam)
    It would relate to productivity - ie the more people you entertain the higher the value of your productivity.
    Doesn't that contradict the entire point? You're now saying the amount of "stuff" you are entitled to is no longer based purely on the number of hours you work, it's now based on the value of what you produce. Then you get into the problem of how you decide the value of something. In this case it's not clear which would be more valuable, a video that 1 million people watched but didn't like it that much, or one that 10,000 people watched but they really enjoyed it.
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    I don't quite get bitcoin. Yeah you can make money from it, because you can "mine bitcoins" or whatever, but I really can't see why I'd use it.

    People say stuff like "Oh there's no fees to transfer bitcoins to someone living in another country" but then I have specialised cards that don't charge me a penny
    Money laundering and selling illegal products is the main reason to trade in bitcoins. The main quality that makes it different from normal currencies is that the money supply is artificially limited, as if bitcoins were actual bars of gold being mined. This encourages people to mine bitcoins now as opposed to later, which is the converse of most currencies which encourage speculation. Bitcoin is more comparable to the gold rush than to any currency for this reason.

    It is also a currency not based on the continuity of any one country's economy, and therefore the market is up and down like a yo-yo. Until such time as the value of a bitcoin stabilises with relation to, say, the amount of drugs you can buy with it, this volatility means investors hope to get lucky off it rather than unlucky.

    The optimum investment in Bitcoin is £1000-£10,000.
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    [QUOTE]
    (Original post by Psyk)
    How would you prevent abuse though? What's to stop someone logging more hours than they've done? And what's to stop someone just not putting much effort in when they are technically working?
    Same way when people get their paycheck they don't get more than their pay. It would be monitored. Also if you achieved the required productivity, it wouldn't actually matter.

    I'm not quite clear on that. So would basic food be free? As in you do not have to do any work to get it?
    It would be free in return for putting in the necessary manhours.

    Doesn't that contradict the entire point? You're now saying the amount of "stuff" you are entitled to is no longer based purely on the number of hours you work, it's now based on the value of what you produce.
    I did say in post 52, but repeat, manhours would be based on the number of people required. skill level, popularity of the jobs and productivity.
    Then you get into the problem of how you decide the value of something. In this case it's not clear which would be more valuable, a video that 1 million people watched but didn't like it that much, or one that 10,000 people watched but they really enjoyed it.
    The measure of value could be adjusted by including approval ratings in this instance. Each aspect of production could be assessed according to differing criteria to suit its benefit.
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