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Mass murderer Anders Breivik asks for permission to leave prison for mother's funeral Watch

  • View Poll Results: Where do you stand on this most heinous suggestion, old chap?
    Let him go, lad.
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    Nay, deny permission.
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    62.81%

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    (Original post by SirHas)
    And giving this guy just 21 years is working as a great deterrent?


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    So your argument is that since prison isn't a deterrent, we should kill people, which isn't a deterrent either? Genius.

    That aside, it isn't 21 years. It's 21 years with room for extension after periodical reviews. It's exceptionally unlikely that they'll ever let him out. That's the maximum penalty available in Norwegian courts.

    The problem is that you're looking at this entirely the wrong way. Prison shouldn't be a punishment. Prison shouldn't be a deterrent. Neither of these things are progressive or even effective. The way to prevent crime is to address the underlying issues, whether the issue in question is racism, poverty, political marginalisation, whatever. Prison should be a last resort method of rehabilitation.


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    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    I think he should be allowed to attend the funeral, showing him compassion may well be the first step in him realizing the full extent of the damage and pain he caused and more importantly lead him to genuinely regret his actions. What he did is done, treating him like a monster and not offering any kind of support or help to a man who is clearly deranged and broken will not bring any dead people back to life nor does it serve any purpose other than revenge.
    The man killed 77 people. There should be no compassion. What is so wrong about revenge? Let him rot in a hole, just imagine if it was your children that had been carelessly executed.
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    (Original post by 321zero)
    I don't care what the health professionals who assessed him believe, the man is insane. No sane human slaughters children.
    Why does it matter either way?
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    Let him rot. I wouldn't have even allowed him to see his mother.
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    Let the victims' families decide, put it to a vote.
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    (Original post by M1011)
    Why does it matter either way?
    He shouldn't be allowed out of a mental institution for a funeral or anything else as he is insane and a threat to the public.
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    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    I think he should be allowed to attend the funeral, showing him compassion may well be the first step in him realizing the full extent of the damage and pain he caused and more importantly lead him to genuinely regret his actions. What he did is done, treating him like a monster and not offering any kind of support or help to a man who is clearly deranged and broken will not bring any dead people back to life nor does it serve any purpose other than revenge.
    That isn't going to do anything, really. Read his motives.
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    (Original post by Abbot)
    So your argument is that since prison isn't a deterrent, we should kill people, which isn't a deterrent either? Genius.

    That aside, it isn't 21 years. It's 21 years with room for extension after periodical reviews. It's exceptionally unlikely that they'll ever let him out. That's the maximum penalty available in Norwegian courts.

    The problem is that you're looking at this entirely the wrong way. Prison shouldn't be a punishment. Prison shouldn't be a deterrent. Neither of these things are progressive or even effective. The way to prevent crime is to address the underlying issues, whether the issue in question is racism, poverty, political marginalisation, whatever. Prison should be a last resort method of rehabilitation.


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    I totally understand and agree with you to a certain degree. This case isn't any like any other crime, this guy should get the the lethal injection. I believe prison should be the last resort, also it should rehabilitate the person. I strongly believe there is no rehabilitation for this person. Just to correct you I did not not say kill everyone instead of a prison sentence.


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    (Original post by SirHas)
    I totally understand and agree with you to a certain degree. This case isn't any like any other crime, this guy should get the the lethal injection. I believe prison should be the last resort, also it should rehabilitate the person. I strongly believe there is no rehabilitation for this person. Just to correct you I did not not say kill everyone instead of a prison sentence.


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    You can't draw arbitrary distinctions like that. It undermines the whole system. “Oh, this one's different, we'll kill him.” That isn't justice, 'cos what it means is “This one makes me angrier, so I'll kill him”.

    There is rehabilitation for everyone. No human being is irretrievably broken. If you want to make that assertion, back it up.


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    (Original post by 321zero)
    I don't care what the health professionals who assessed him believe, the man is insane. No sane human slaughters children.
    This is a dangerous worldview. Psychiatry should be a supportive structure, there to help people. By defining aberrant behaviours as insane, you're subverting that and turning psychiatry into a mechanism of social control. You're essentially re-defining dissenters as insane. You can kick up a fuss and make an appeal to emotion because he's a mass murderer, but he's still a dissenter. Rather than looking purely at the end result and robbing him of his sanity on that basis, I think you should look at how he got there. Were the initial mental conditions those of a “sane” man, a rational man? Look at all the dead children in Iraq. If someone could do that, why wouldn't we consider them insane? By your definition, we should have sectioned the House of Commons. Why not every soldier involved? Why not every citizen that didn't protest?

    The reasoning was “wrong”, but it's not massively different to the reasoning employed by many in power. We invaded Afghanistan. Innumerable innocents died, but we were fighting terrorism so that was unfortunate but neccesary collateral damage. He thought he was fighting an Islamic invasion by killing its political defenders. The difference being... power. Cultural hegemony. Sanity and insanity aren't cut-and-dried concepts. They're socially constructed. That's just a fact. Our duty lies in constructing them in a progressive manner, rather than an oppressive/regressive one.

    Psychiatry is inherently predisposed towards oppression. It's drawing a little circle around your own group and saying that everyone outside the circle is defective. Trying to help them inside the circle is better than locking them up in padded cells, but it's how you do it that matters. Yeah, it's difficult to argue that severe schizophrenia isn't a malfunction, I get the psychiatric argument... Call me an idiot, but I get uneasy when we start saying that difference is disease.


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    (Original post by 321zero)
    He shouldn't be allowed out of a mental institution for a funeral or anything else as he is insane and a threat to the public.
    I'd take issue with labelling him as insane.

    That aside, “insane” people should be locked up forever? Insanity isn't chosen. As well lock up men for being black.

    He isn't a threat to the public if he's escorted in chains.


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    (Original post by M1011)
    The man killed 77 people. There should be no compassion. What is so wrong about revenge? Let him rot in a hole, just imagine if it was your children that had been carelessly executed.
    There should always be compassion. Society creates criminality, so society should take responsibility.

    Revenge isn't just or right. It's animalistic. He caused me pain, so I'l cause him pain. Is the problem solved? No. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc.

    Were they my children, I only hope that I'd have the strength to find compassion.

    Even without compassion, looking at it as a cold, hard numbers game... Killing the guy after the crime just adds another death to the total. Addressing the underlying cause, the ultimate motive, the first mover or near as damn it,prevents similar incidents in the future.


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    (Original post by Id and Ego seek)
    'Since his incarceration, the 34-year-old has complained that his coffee was served cold, he didn’t have enough butter for his bread, and he was forced to go without moisturiser.'
    What?
    Ever watched American Psycho?
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    (Original post by Abbot)
    There should always be compassion. Society creates criminality, so society should take responsibility.

    Revenge isn't just or right. It's animalistic. He caused me pain, so I'l cause him pain. Is the problem solved? No. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc.

    Were they my children, I only hope that I'd have the strength to find compassion.

    Even without compassion, looking at it as a cold, hard numbers game... Killing the guy after the crime just adds another death to the total. Addressing the underlying cause, the ultimate motive, the first mover or near as damn it,prevents similar incidents in the future.


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    So this guy commits the biggest mass murder in the history of that country (well, recorded), yet you think that is societies fault? Hardly the norm is it?

    To be frank you sound like you've tried to swallow a book on morality. The guy is a monster, there is no reason why anybody should try and help him. We can't help everyone in need as it is, so lets move mass child murdering psychopaths to the bottom of the list OK?

    Question, are you religious?
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    (Original post by Abbot)
    There should always be compassion. Society creates criminality, so society should take responsibility.

    Revenge isn't just or right. It's animalistic. He caused me pain, so I'l cause him pain. Is the problem solved? No. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind, etc.

    Were they my children, I only hope that I'd have the strength to find compassion.

    Even without compassion, looking at it as a cold, hard numbers game... Killing the guy after the crime just adds another death to the total. Addressing the underlying cause, the ultimate motive, the first mover or near as damn it,prevents similar incidents in the future.
    Ah, but say you were the sort of person who likes taking people's eyes - aren't you less likely to take someone's eye if you know that your eye(s) will be taken in return? Punishment isn't just revenge, it's also prevention.
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    (Original post by SirHas)
    Capital punishment shows we don't stand for that sort of crime, but giving him a easy sentence will just show everyone else they can get away with it.


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    Capital punishment as a deterrent doesn't work. That's what all the evidence shows. And no-one who's consider committing a similar crime is going to reconsider just because they might not be let out for a funeral. Listen to yourself.


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    (Original post by Harry Callahan)
    **** him. Should have thought about that when you were murdering innocent people, eh, Anders?
    What he did has nothing to do with his mother passing away so don't even try and link them.
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    (Original post by M1011)
    So this guy commits the biggest mass murder in the history of that country (well, recorded), yet you think that is societies fault? Hardly the norm is it?

    To be frank you sound like you've tried to swallow a book on morality. The guy is a monster, there is no reason why anybody should try and help him. We can't help everyone in need as it is, so lets move mass child murdering psychopaths to the bottom of the list OK?

    Question, are you religious?
    After a fashion. He is a product of that society, of his environment.

    Hardly. Perhaps you would do well to read a book or two on the subject. Or just stop reading the Sun/Daily Mail. It isn't as if I've made a super-esoteric, ridiculously abstract argument. I've made an argument, rather than just chucking out emotive clichès.

    You're taking the easy way out. “He's a monster and that's the end of that” doesn't help us stop this happening again. We have to ask what made him, to use your term, a monster. If we could have walked into the maternity ward on the day of his birth, would you have picked him out and been able to say, hand on heart, that this was an evil baby? That this was a cold-blooded monster that was destined to kill? That there was nothing that could helped this baby grow into anything other than a murderer?

    I don't see why religion's relevant.


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    (Original post by Hopple)
    Ah, but say you were the sort of person who likes taking people's eyes - aren't you less likely to take someone's eye if you know that your eye(s) will be taken in return? Punishment isn't just revenge, it's also prevention.
    Statistics show that I'm just as likely, if not more likely, to take someone's eyes.


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    Love your enemies people
 
 
 
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