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    (Original post by SubAtomic)
    Did you quote the wrong person? Different people get pleasure from different things, am not saying I agree with hunting for sport but what can I do? To play devils advocate an arrow and cut throat would be quicker than being prepared by the lions.

    My main gripe is with ape hunters and people who hunt other things for no reason other than financial gain, rhino horns and the ivory trade for one example. Wild animal trade disgusts me, cruelty disgusts me, the world and some of the humans in it disgust me at times. The OP is small fry.
    I am not saying you agree with hunting, rather on the contrary I was saying that your point against hunting down a wild animal was well put. But yes, the bushmeat trade is something which goes unrealised and mainly unstopped.
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    Yes, but they do not die in a way which induced fear and panic. And either way that was not my point. My point is that hunting causes unnecessary pain and fear. If it is for the purpose of a cull, then a hunt is not always necessary that is what traps are for and then the animal can be put down later. If it is for the purpose of survival and it is the only way of getting food, then yes of course as long as the animal targeted is not endangered or endemic.

    (Original post by ironandwine)
    It's disgusting and inhumane.
    Can I ask both of you, are you vegetarian/vegan? Or do you make a conscious effort to eat meat from what we could call 'ethical sources'? (I suppose organic/free to roam/grass-fed might be the word)

    If not, I think it's somewhat hypocritical to criticise the OP when most likely you have eaten chicken that was kept in a giant shed with hundreds of other chickens all crammed up against each other. I'm just pointing out you don't have to look hard to find videos of horrific animal abuse in the meat industry, so unless you oppose it with your actions (which for all I know you do, so I apologise if that's the case) I think it's harsh to criticise the OP.

    At least he can guarantee that when he eats/uses that animal, it wasn't born into a factory with no sunlight. The pain and fear of shooting an animal yourself is probably less than what happens to a lot of meat in Britain. Understand my point?
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I tend to agree, no-one eats fox's, we rarely use there pelts.
    In Fox Hunting they are torn appart cruelly.

    None of which are good things, I recognize that they need to be culled especially in rural areas and farmland, and in which case, trapping and shooting is ok, but the "Toffy" horse and hound way , im not keen on.
    If you think about it, the fox is actually killed in the most natural way, by what is essentially a predator. Many (possibly even most) wild animals are killed by other animals' teeth, so it's hardly extreme cruelty if a fox dies this way too. Also, it's a popular misconception that hunts consist entirely of the 'landed gentry' and snobby aristocrats. Most hunts are made up mainly of farmers and other ordinary people with horses, and titled people are a small minority, so it's hardly "toffy".
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    Converse Rocker, no I am not a vegetarian but I do not eat meat. We only eat fish which are sustainably sourced so no tuna or cod etc for me. Yes I have watched a video of animal abuse: it was a pig in a factory being chased around by some attendants who were placing burning sticks on its skin. I also used to have a cow which we took from a slaughterhouse so I would thank you not to baby me.
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    Killing for food - fine in my book (though I still think people should dispatch the prey quickly & cleanly)

    Killing for fun - I'm against, as I think it's cruel.

    That's my opinion in a nut-shell really.
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    Converse Rocker, no I am not a vegetarian but I do not eat meat. We only eat fish which are sustainably sourced so no tuna or cod etc for me. Yes I have watched a video of animal abuse: it was a pig in a factory being chased around by some attendants who were placing burning sticks on its skin. I also used to have a cow which we took from a slaughterhouse so I would thank you not to baby me.
    I wasn't trying to lecture you on animal welfare, sorry.
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    (Original post by FrogInABog)
    If you think about it, the fox is actually killed in the most natural way, by what is essentially a predator.
    I understand what you are trying to say but when you refer to us as 'predators' you don't tend to find a lion on a horse chasing a gazelle or an eagle with a rifle hunting down a mouse. So therefore, it is not as natural as it may seem in basic concepts.
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    (Original post by Converse Rocker)
    Can I ask both of you, are you vegetarian/vegan? Or do you make a conscious effort to eat meat from what we could call 'ethical sources'? (I suppose organic/free to roam/grass-fed might be the word)

    If not, I think it's somewhat hypocritical to criticise the OP when most likely you have eaten chicken that was kept in a giant shed with hundreds of other chickens all crammed up against each other. I'm just pointing out you don't have to look hard to find videos of horrific animal abuse in the meat industry, so unless you oppose it with your actions (which for all I know you do, so I apologise if that's the case) I think it's harsh to criticise the OP.

    At least he can guarantee that when he eats/uses that animal, it wasn't born into a factory with no sunlight. The pain and fear of shooting an animal yourself is probably less than what happens to a lot of meat in Britain. Understand my point?
    Yes, I'm vegetarian....
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    I understand what you are trying to say but when you refer to us as 'predators' you don't tend to find a lion on a horse chasing a gazelle or an eagle with a rifle hunting down a mouse. So therefore, it is not as natural as it may seem in basic concepts.
    I was referring to the hounds as predators, and they have neither horses nor rifles, just teeth (their natural weapon). The huntsmen are only passively involved; they follow the hounds which chase and kill the fox, so are not really the predators in this case. Your examples do conjure up some funny images, but they're not representative!
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    (Original post by ironandwine)
    Yes, I'm vegetarian....
    Like I said then, my post isn't relevant.
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    (Original post by FrogInABog)
    I was referring to the hounds as predators, and they have neither horses nor rifles, just teeth (their natural weapon)
    Yes that may be so but do you not agree it is very much tipped in the hounds favour with many of them chasing a single fox? And also referring to your point about aristocracy and farmers, many farmers find that the hunt would have taken place across their land even if a few others did join in the hunt. Besides, horse riding is usually considered to be a very middle-class- this is not aristocracy- sport even some of the horse rides admit it grudgingly
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    It's legit I always used to throw my offhands at humans around Goldshire and hunting them, whereas my hunter friend just told his dog to get them!
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    The OP stated he hunts mostly for fun, that is the clue. He has no respect for life at all, the animal is provided merely for his enjoyment. Yes we eat our meat, but for sustenance, we could be vegetarian, but humans are omnivores. I am not surprised that he has an American connection, the most debased hunters on the globe, their gun culture is disgusting.
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    Yes that may be so but do you not agree it is very much tipped in the hounds favour with many of them chasing a single fox? And also referring to your point about aristocracy and farmers, many farmers find that the hunt would have taken place across their land even if a few others did join in the hunt. Besides, horse riding is usually considered to be a very middle-class- this is not aristocracy- sport even some of the horse rides admit it grudgingly
    Of course it's tipped in the favour of the hounds, but pack hunting is hardly unnatural; dogs are, after all, descended from wolves, the most well-known pack hunters of all (other examples include: lions, hyenas, killer whales, coyotes, and many more besides). I'm afraid I don't quite follow your second point. If you're saying that riding (and therefore hunting) is firmly a middle-class sport, then I agree with you. My original point about this was that many people (particularly city-dwellers) see hunting as something that is reserved for the nobility (I think the person I quoted referred to it as "toffy"), which is simply untrue.
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    (Original post by FrogInABog)
    Of course it's tipped in the favour of the hounds, but pack hunting is hardly unnatural; dogs are, after all, descended from wolves, the most well-known pack hunters of all (other examples include: lions, hyenas, killer whales, coyotes, and many more besides
    I follow your point yet these pack hunters are not backed up by two other species with several of them wielding guns with which to finish off the fox. I believe numbers of foxes are on the rise and a cull may be in order soon at which point some people may start clamouring for a hunt but it would be better to trap the fox and then put it down humanely and without the panic. Of course, you could argue that would leave the fox without a natural predator but it faces enough threats with the vehicles, other foxes and also some species of birds which have been known to mob and sometimes kill them. Also, there are many other animals which do not have natural predators, including us, and this is the way nature made it.
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    Personally, it is not something I would do or would be particularly comfortable with if I found out a partner/friend/relative of mine was hunting wild animals for fun, even if they were using/selling the meat and pelts.

    I don't really want to start getting on some sort of activist high horse although I do believe in many 'animal rights' policies. I believe that killing an animal should not be an enjoyable experience. I don't understand it. Why would ending a life which is so free, docile and beautiful be pleasant. Animals kill to eat and survive in the wild, not primarily for fun. I am not saying they don't enjoy the thrill of the chase/adrenalin rush as I am not an animal behavioural psychologist, but to my understanding the focus concern is to survive.
    Then again on the other hand, you are eating them and if people didn't hunt these animals they wouldn't be able to eat them and they are just another source of meat I suppose, providing they is plenty numbers available for the natural predators of these animals in the wild. I don't really think it's a problem because it is a 'pretty deer, you couldn't possibly kill that' or some argument along them lines. It's food at the end of the day and killed humanely so as quickly and painlessly as possible, no problems with me.

    I don't know. I assume you don't hunt anything close to extinction or in low numbers but I think my main concern is not the hunting or killing of the animal, but the pleasure you take in seeing an animal struck down and terrified assuming you 'stalk' these animals. Maybe my personal emotions are clouding my logic, but I don't know :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Well except time and pride.
    Lol, you're not going to die, just keep trying. Are you actually proud that you managed to kill those animals in the OP, where they weren't trying to kill you and wouldn't be able to even if they tried? As for time, you're the one who chose to fly out to Africa.
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    I follow your point yet these pack hunters are not backed up by two other species with several of them wielding guns with which to finish off the fox. I believe numbers of foxes are on the rise and a cull may be in order soon at which point some people may start clamouring for a hunt but it would be better to trap the fox and then put it down humanely and without the panic. Of course, you could argue that would leave the fox without a natural predator but it faces enough threats with the vehicles, other foxes and also some species of birds which have been known to mob and sometimes kill them. Also, there are many other animals which do not have natural predators, including us, and this is the way nature made it.
    The vast majority of foxes killed on a hunt are by the hounds, which provide an extremely quick death, particularly given the sheer number of them. As I said before, all the huntsmen/horses really do is follow the hounds, and their presence on the hunt is largely irrelevant to the fate of the fox. I don't buy into the idea that trapping and shooting is more humane. The average chase time is quite short, so any stress that the fox undergoes in the process of the hunt is relatively short-lived. Compare this to a trap, where the fox will most likely be stuck for many hours or even days before someone comes to kill it; animals hate being confined in a small space, so its suffering would last a good deal longer.
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    (Original post by PricklyPorcupine)
    Yes, but they do not die in a way which induced fear and panic. And either way that was not my point. My point is that hunting causes unnecessary pain and fear. If it is for the purpose of a cull, then a hunt is not always necessary that is what traps are for and then the animal can be put down later. If it is for the purpose of survival and it is the only way of getting food, then yes of course as long as the animal targeted is not endangered or endemic.
    In regards to hunting with dogs where the dog does the chasing and killing i disagree with as it causes a lot of fear though the animals death when caught is usually quick

    So tell me what traps would you prefer? foothold traps smash the foreleg of the animal (and can cause them to chew thier own leg off to escape)? wire snares which on larger animals garrote the foot (slowly) and on smaller animals which garrote the throat (slowly), Pit traps which just cause panic, or even better spike pit traps. Or snap traps where the animal is left dangling in mid air for maybe hours on end? Cage traps, where the animal will tear its skin and claws trying to escape? ALL methods of trapping cause stress and injury to animals

    In a hunt with a rifle/bow the animal dies very quickly, if the shot doesnt kill then the vast majority of hunters will move in and put them out of the creature misery. Believe it or not, most hunters dont do it to torture the animal, they do it to kill. As cleanly as possible.
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    I eat meat but I don't think killing animals purely for fun is justified. I don't see how anyone can take pleasure in ending a life :/
 
 
 
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