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Bashar al-assad and the Syrian conflict Watch

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    (Original post by Ornlu)
    But it makes you think, Iraq was better with Saddam than Iraq is now; would Syria be like Iraq? Legitimate government maybe, better for Syria as a whole? Too much that could go wrong...
    I don't agree that Iraq is worse now than with Saddam Hussein's genocidal dictatorship tbh, and many of the problems that did emerge after he was gone could be traced back to his rule of a minority over the majority. But there are many differances between Iraq and Syria (at least in 2011). There was a genuine democratic movement and uprising in Syria to support, in Iraq there was not. I think a better comparison would be the west encouraging the people of Iraq to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after the 1991 Gulf War, then knifing them in the back when they did, instead imposing sanctions which are widely condemned.
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    (Original post by Rational Thinker)
    It's hard to know who is who at this point. The Syrian rebels no doubt started out with the best of intentions but the revolution will turn on itself and devour its children, the revolution it seems most akin to is the Mexican revolution which removed a despot only for it's leader to become one as well. Assad is no Gadhafi though, whereas Gadhafi kept his army divided, Assad's is acute but powerful and I can't see Assad leaving, if he leaves he dies and he knows that.


    Thank you, it's Andrija Hebrang, who fought to free Croatia from the Nazis, Italians and their quislings
    Well chosen, I remember reading something about Hebrang he was a victims of Stalin I believe although I may be wrong, it's sad, it seems the biggest victims of Stalin were those of genuine left wing views, eg Hebrang, Kamnev, Trotsky, Zinoviev. I think it was Lenin and Stalin who dissolved trade unions under the argument that "they were the trade unions now".[/QUOTE]

    Adding to the differences with Libya, a large number of Syrians support Assad entirely, civilians that shout and scream in the street praising the SAA for 'liberating' them from the rebels.

    Living in a rebel held town in Syria is probably alot worse than living in a government held one. On the long and potentially failed road to 'democracy' the rebels are probably instating authoritarian control over the areas it owns.

    Some Syrians just want peace. They want things to go back to how they were before the uprising, where you could run your business peacefully. The uprising has just caused mass discomfort for normal Syrians.

    I cant see Assad falling, i just cant see it happening, I cant see the Russians allowing it to happen, rebels have already targeted them in Syria (I believe).

    And the reason the west wont intervene? Because they will be seen as cherrypicking, and merely co-operating with even more authoritarian countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar), whom openly supply the rebels. You cant go into Syria with the excuse that the dictatorship is wrong, because what do you say about those other Authoritarian countries in the region? it would be plain hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by Clessus)
    I don't agree that Iraq is worse now than with Saddam Hussein's genocidal dictatorship tbh, and many of the problems that did emerge after he was gone could be traced back to his rule of a minority over the majority. But there are many differances between Iraq and Syria (at least in 2011). There was a genuine democratic movement and uprising in Syria to support, in Iraq there was not. I think a better comparison would be the west encouraging the people of Iraq to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after the 1991 Gulf War, then knifing them in the back when they did, instead imposing sanctions which are widely condemned.
    Iraq has merely fallen into a pit of sectarian violence. Multiple suicide bombings every single week. It's something that will potentially never be sorted, because the way Iraq works now, groups of people will ALWAYS be pissed off. The kind of people that would blow themself up.

    Anyone and Everyone is at risk of death in Iraq, on a frequent basis. To say that a country like that is better than a stable dictatorship is a controversial point.
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    How different are the Shia's to Sunni's?

    If you watch rebel videos they scream Allahu Akbar consistently throughout, yet the Syrian Army (Whom i guess are Shia's mostly) never do that.

    The video shows them taking the micky out of Sunni's (I presume) But they make it out like theyre completely different!

    Is the difference that big? Is 'Allahu Akbar' a Sunni term?

    I mean, from my point of view watching that video it looks like theyre a bunch of atheists.
    This whole Shia and Sunni fight makes me sick and this revolution is not only for sunni but to all syrians regardless of their colour and religion to fight tyranny. Look for example at Bassel Shahadeh, a Christian Syrian who was killed by Assad, All Syrians will never forget him because he, as mny others from all religions want freedom to their country. End of story
    Here's his funeral
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NV0iLXEAmg
    and here's a film that brings together a collection of works by and about him
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem33Ow8wb4

    The only problem Assad and his soldiers are enraged at us is not because we shouted freedom, not because we cursed and swore at Assad's daddy, not because we asked for democratic change, not because we took to the streets peacefully, but simply because we stopped fearing them!
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    (Original post by Clessus)
    I don't agree that Iraq is worse now than with Saddam Hussein's genocidal dictatorship tbh, and many of the problems that did emerge after he was gone could be traced back to his rule of a minority over the majority. But there are many differances between Iraq and Syria (at least in 2011). There was a genuine democratic movement and uprising in Syria to support, in Iraq there was not. I think a better comparison would be the west encouraging the people of Iraq to rise up and overthrow Saddam Hussein after the 1991 Gulf War, then knifing them in the back when they did, instead imposing sanctions which are widely condemned.
    I would argue otherwise; more people have died from the war and the violence after it than he killed in his genicide (by no means to I support his cleansing of the Kurds though). There was less sectarian violence (less bombings etc), Al Queda did not exist in Iraq, and Iraq had hell of a lot more infrastructure than it does now - functioning hospitals and schools and the like; driven into dust by American munitions.
    All in all, if the game was played right, Saddam would have killed less people in the rest of his life (assuming he ruled till he died) than the hundreds of thousands/ millions killed by and since the war, IMO... We'll have to agree to disagree
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    (Original post by Syrian Guy)
    This whole Shia and Sunni fight makes me sick and this revolution is not only for sunni but to all syrians regardless of their colour and religion to fight tyranny. Look for example at Bassel Shahadeh, a Christian Syrian who was killed by Assad, All Syrians will never forget him because he, as mny others from all religions want freedom to their country. End of story
    Here's his funeral
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NV0iLXEAmg
    and here's a film that brings together a collection of works by and about him
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem33Ow8wb4

    The only problem Assad and his soldiers are enraged at us is not because we shouted freedom, not because we cursed and swore at Assad's daddy, not because we asked for democratic change, not because we took to the streets peacefully, but simply because we stopped fearing them!
    But in the context of the video, is there a massive difference in the way Shia's pray to Sunni's, i mean, theyre taking the mick out of Sunni's, but how different do they pray to them?
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    (Original post by Ornlu)
    I would argue otherwise; more people have died from the war and the violence after it than he killed in his genicide (by no means to I support his cleansing of the Kurds though). There was less sectarian violence (less bombings etc), Al Queda did not exist in Iraq, and Iraq had hell of a lot more infrastructure than it does now - functioning hospitals and schools and the like; driven into dust by American munitions.
    All in all, if the game was played right, Saddam would have killed less people in the rest of his life (assuming he ruled till he died) than the hundreds of thousands/ millions killed by and since the war, IMO... We'll have to agree to disagree

    I didn't support the war in Iraq, but to put this in context, between 1986 and 1988 Saddam Hussein killed at least 100,000 civilians in the Al-Anfal campaign against the Kurds. All together, not counting the war with Iran (which killed millions of people), around 800,000 people were murdered by Saddam Hussein. The highest reliable estimate for the deaths in Iraq is around 600,000 (and this includes those who died from war related causes, which are not included in those killed by Saddam Hussein). The idea that Iraq was 'stable' under Saddam Hussein is a load of nonsense, equivalent to saying that Kashmir was stable under Hari Singh.

    Iraq was already crumbling in 2003 under the weight of debt and sanction (as a result of Saddam Hussein's actions) before the invasion, as Saddam's crime family quite literally stole food out of the mouths of the Iraqi people while they were starving.
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    But in the context of the video, is there a massive difference in the way Shia's pray to Sunni's, i mean, theyre taking the mick out of Sunni's, but how different do they pray to them?
    I really don't know, I never prayed in a shia mosque but obviously the soldiers in that vid were winding Sunnis up by smoking in the mosque and saying offensive words about a scholar/ Imam/ who is followed many Sunnis.
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    (Original post by Syrian Guy)
    This whole Shia and Sunni fight makes me sick and this revolution is not only for sunni but to all syrians regardless of their colour and religion to fight tyranny. Look for example at Bassel Shahadeh, a Christian Syrian who was killed by Assad, All Syrians will never forget him because he, as mny others from all religions want freedom to their country. End of story
    Here's his funeral
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NV0iLXEAmg
    and here's a film that brings together a collection of works by and about him
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nem33Ow8wb4

    The only problem Assad and his soldiers are enraged at us is not because we shouted freedom, not because we cursed and swore at Assad's daddy, not because we asked for democratic change, not because we took to the streets peacefully, but simply because we stopped fearing them!
    No he's enraged because youre blowing up what was once a beautiful country in a name of terrorism.
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    (Original post by Bluffroom)
    He's a dictator, hundreds of thousands have died under him, he is using chemical weapons and is an absolute lunatic - definitely the best leader.

    They need to take the guy out already
    And who do you suggest to replace him?

    Look at Iran for example. Yes, the shah needed to go (before 1979) but look at Iran now?
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    (Original post by moalem.abassi)
    And who do you suggest to replace him?

    Look at Iran for example. Yes, the shah needed to go (before 1979) but look at Iran now?
    That's a flawed argument!

    How can you say that you would rather have bashar than the syrians rule because you are afraid about the future...bloody hell are you not worried about the present? How many have been killed so far? or does that not matter because most of them have been sunni muslims so thats okay? hmmm...

    Right now there is killing, its not going to stop, its going to continue because the source is still there so unless bashar goes this is going to last a bit longer than the syrians thought.
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    (Original post by Ama2007)
    That's a flawed argument!

    How can you say that you would rather have bashar than the syrians rule because you are afraid about the future...bloody hell are you not worried about the present? How many have been killed so far? or does that not matter because most of them have been sunni muslims so thats okay? hmmm...

    Right now there is killing, its not going to stop, its going to continue because the source is still there so unless bashar goes this is going to last a bit longer than the syrians thought.
    Why do you say Bashar vs the Syrians? There are a large number of Syrians whom support Assad.
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    Why do you say Bashar vs the Syrians? There are a large number of Syrians whom support Assad.
    The majority of people who support Bashar are Alwees (am talking about people in syria here) and last time I checked they were the minority making up less than 20% of the total population of syria which is around 23 millions so you can work it out from there.

    There is also a very small number of non-alwees supporting bashar and I mean very small number here.

    P.S an alwee is a person who follows something called alwite and they have a sit of rules which they have to follow. They are minority but the have manged to rule the country into chaos for the past 40 years. Part of their religion is t worship Bashar, check out google, its very useful! anyway that's off topic! just wanted to clarify.
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    (Original post by Ama2007)
    The majority of people who support Bashar are Alwees (am talking about people in syria here) and last time I checked they were the minority making up less than 20% of the total population of syria which is around 23 millions so you can work it out from there.

    There is also a very small number of non-alwees supporting bashar and I mean very small number here.

    P.S an alwee is a person who follows something called alwite and they have a sit of rules which they have to follow. They are minority but the have manged to rule the country into chaos for the past 40 years. Part of their religion is t worship Bashar, check out google, its very useful! anyway that's off topic! just wanted to clarify.
    So do you just class Sunni's as 'the Syrians' then? Sure theyre Alawites but theyre still Syrians.
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    Bashar al-Assad is a dictator who has murdered thousands, and a man who is determined the create a regional in the middle east just to protect himself. If this happens millions could die. Though he ins't the only party that should be disgusted at their actions, the rebels have undoubtedly have committed wide spread torture and unlawful killings of state forces and this cannot be forgotten. Finally the international community should be ashamed of themselves, in the fact the put politics and arms sales above the cost of human life.

    And the idea of arming the rebels or the good rebels and not the extremists is pathetic, how will flooding the country with more weapons going end in peace it will only end in more death. the only way we get peace in syria is to get all sides around the table.
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    (Original post by cl_steele)
    No he's enraged because youre blowing up what was once a beautiful country in a name of terrorism.
    I can see why you don't understand the situation in Syria. I'd suggest you watch this film and see how brainwashed we were! Thanks to the Syrian revolution.

    PS. Thanks for the rep, :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by AndrewWS)
    Bashar al-Assad is a dictator who has murdered thousands, and a man who is determined the create a regional in the middle east just to protect himself. If this happens millions could die. Though he ins't the only party that should be disgusted at their actions, the rebels have undoubtedly have committed wide spread torture and unlawful killings of state forces and this cannot be forgotten. Finally the international community should be ashamed of themselves, in the fact the put politics and arms sales above the cost of human life.

    And the idea of arming the rebels or the good rebels and not the extremists is pathetic, how will flooding the country with more weapons going end in peace it will only end in more death. the only way we get peace in syria is to get all sides around the table.
    What about the 100.000 lives who died already? People don't forget what they had been through especially if they lost their beloved ones. I don't think diplomacy would work as neither sides would back off till the other lose.
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    I've just read this by Michael Neumann

    "Where the US is concerned, one clear preoccupation never relents: preventing the spread of advanced anti-aircraft and anti-tank weapons. These weapons would pose a much greater threat to Israel than the big anti-missile systems that get attention such as the S-300. That's because Israel can easily destroy the big systems, but it cannot destroy the small ones. And like it or not, keeping Israel safe and happy will always come higher than helping Syrians on the US policy agenda."

    http://insufficientrespect.blogspot.com/
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    (Original post by Apocrypha)
    Why do you say Bashar vs the Syrians? There are a large number of Syrians whom support Assad.
    Everything she knows about Syria is probably through the BBC
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    (Original post by Ama2007)
    That's a flawed argument!

    How can you say that you would rather have bashar than the syrians rule because you are afraid about the future...bloody hell are you not worried about the present? How many have been killed so far? or does that not matter because most of them have been sunni muslims so thats okay? hmmm...

    Right now there is killing, its not going to stop, its going to continue because the source is still there so unless bashar goes this is going to last a bit longer than the syrians thought.
    Well first of all it was not an argument, it was a question and comparison.

    In Iran, the shah obviously needed to go and the majority of the Iranian population had this view. Otherwise there would not have been a revolution.

    But for most Iranians, change was the first things in their heads as opposed to pragmatism. Given that the Iranian population had been used to an autocratic absolute monarchy for decades, they were stuck in the mindset that the entire dynamics of the country were in the hands of one person (and therefore the entire dynamics of the country could be resolved by replacing the one person with one new person). History has shown that this never is the case.

    For many Iranians, Khomeini took advantage of this and filled the role of the populist figure that would come and change everything. Since everyone was so hasty for change, not many people considered hard enough what they wanted to change into. Now look at Iran. Many of the leaders of the Iranian revolution turned against Khomeini promptly after he showed his true colors when in power. Many Iranians who were pro-revolution and pro-khomeini during the revolution are now saying the revolution was hijacked. And now, Iranians are even able to put up lucid arguments that Iran would have been better of without Khomeini.

    My question to you is: Sure, Assad is not an ideal leader for Syria. But have you seen who is in the opposition? You keep referring to 'the Syrian people' but have you actually seen the who the armed militias that are fighting Assad are!?

    It is not just a case of Assad slaughtering masses of unhappy civilians who throw stones at the SAA (though that may be true in some part). He is fighting multiple armed rebel groups, some who are even foreign, backed by the likes of Saudi, Arab Gulf states, USA (and covertly Israel) who hold serious - and some, pretty unnerving - manifestos. You should go look these up.

    For now it may just seem like they are all one team, fighting righteously to break down Assad's regime. But between many of the rebel groups this is the only shared goal. What do you think is going to happen after Assad has gone ?(<- this is not a rhetorical question).
 
 
 
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