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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Maybe if you make a reasoned argument and not just meaningless assertions?
    The fact I was just negged shows intolerance. Maybe if people made an argument against it rather than just meaningless hate...
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    (Original post by LeBuche)
    The fact I was just negged shows intolerance. Maybe if people made an argument against it rather than just meaningless hate...
    You think a neg is "hate"? You wanna get out more!
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    You think a neg is "hate"? You wanna get out more!
    I use hate very loosely.
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    Already a member (BMA).
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    We have a Student Union, but I think that's a little different. As for a workers' union? No, I want to keep my dignity.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Unions cannot be sued for a variety of things and employees cannot be sacked for striking. If you allowed people to be sacked then unions would stick to collective bargaining and not striking.
    Think about the definition of "collective bargaining" for a minute - what do workers have to bargain with other than their labour? If there were no strikes/working to rule then there would be no bargaining, companies would be free to treat their employees however badly they wanted and most workplaces would be a very different place. You probably don't realise just how many of the rights and benefits you enjoy at work, whatever your occupation, have been achieved through years of bargaining by unions.

    Full blown strikes are actually relatively uncommon, and contrary to popular belief even the most widely hated tube strikes don't grind our economy to a halt the way the press would have you believe.
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    (Original post by LeBuche)
    I use hate very loosely.
    Humpty Dumpty.
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    We have a Student Union, but I think that's a little different. As for a workers' union? No, I want to keep my dignity.
    But lose your rights. Clever.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I would never join a union because whilst i have no issue with collective bargaining i consider strikes and the government protection that surrounds them to be abhorrent and could not be affiliated with such an organization if i wished to keep my dignity.
    so you will accept abusive employers and poor conditions and not try for better pay and conditions so you dont have to join a union?

    more fool you.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    But lose your rights. Clever.
    What rights?
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    (Original post by moregano)
    Think about the definition of "collective bargaining" for a minute - what do workers have to bargain with other than their labour? If there were no strikes/working to rule then there would be no bargaining, companies would be free to treat their employees however badly they wanted and most workplaces would be a very different place. You probably don't realise just how many of the rights and benefits you enjoy at work, whatever your occupation, have been achieved through years of bargaining by unions.

    Full blown strikes are actually relatively uncommon, and contrary to popular belief even the most widely hated tube strikes don't grind our economy to a halt the way the press would have you believe.
    It's the same reactionary mentality which is seen with so many different things on TSR:

    "hurr durr, human rights are stupid"

    "hurr durr, feminism is wrong"

    "hurr durr, unions are for trots"

    If our generation lived in a time without worker's rights and so on (something our great-grandparents might remember), we wouldn't be so flippant and ungrateful. We're a generation of spoilt brats and politicians know this full well so they take advantage of it.

    Still, if the current group of taskmasters get their way, maybe in the very near future we'll realise that reverting to the Victorian era is actually not a great move for society or for ourselves. I can only hope that it won't be too late by then.
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    If I felt a need for it maybe, but generally I'd say no.

    Unions tend to be a front for Left politics and very self-serving. Plus, I wouldn't want to contribute to the Labour Party :mmm:

    Plus, I see myself as more of a middle management kind of guy anyway.
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    (Original post by alex5455)
    so you will accept abusive employers and poor conditions and not try for better pay and conditions so you dont have to join a union?

    more fool you.
    I've secured pay rises without unions before, i'm sure i can do so again.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I've secured pay rises without unions before, i'm sure i can do so again.
    now answer the rest of my post.
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    (Original post by moregano)
    Think about the definition of "collective bargaining" for a minute - what do workers have to bargain with other than their labour? If there were no strikes/working to rule then there would be no bargaining, companies would be free to treat their employees however badly they wanted and most workplaces would be a very different place. You probably don't realise just how many of the rights and benefits you enjoy at work, whatever your occupation, have been achieved through years of bargaining by unions.

    Full blown strikes are actually relatively uncommon, and contrary to popular belief even the most widely hated tube strikes don't grind our economy to a halt the way the press would have you believe.
    Yes which is why people should simply find another job for back-up, go to their current employer and then ask for a pay rise. If you bargain with your labour in such a way you should be willing to act on your principles, not strike under government protection.
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    (Original post by alex5455)
    now answer the rest of my post.
    I don't see what your getting at, you don't solely need a union to get fewer hours or a pay rise (though it helps). You simply need to impress and formulate a strategy which in my case was to say quite calmly that i'd worked there for x period and felt that i deserved y compensation otherwise i may be forced to leave.

    Equally when i first started working i found a better paying job every few months.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I've secured pay rises without unions before, i'm sure i can do so again.
    Wrong. You've secured pay rises without being a paid-up member of a union. If there had never been any unions or any industrial action in this country, you wouldn't have had a pay rise, you'd be paid far less, you could be sacked at any moment for any reason or none, you'd have no paid holiday or sick leave, your workplace might be a dangerous environment and you might be expected to work 60+ hours a week, or given a zero hour contract with no guarantee of a regular income.

    (Original post by Democracy)
    It's the same reactionary mentality which is seen with so many different things on TSR:

    "hurr durr, human rights are stupid"

    "hurr durr, feminism is wrong"

    "hurr durr, unions are for trots"

    If our generation lived in a time without worker's rights and so on (something our great-grandparents might remember), we wouldn't be so flippant and ungrateful. We're a generation of spoilt brats and politicians know this full well so they take advantage of it.

    Still, if the current group of taskmasters get their way, maybe in the very near future we'll realise that reverting to the Victorian era is actually not a great move for society or for ourselves. I can only hope that it won't be too late by then.
    This, exactly. Well said.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Yes which is why people should simply find another job for back-up, go to their current employer and then ask for a pay rise. If you bargain with your labour in such a way you should be willing to act on your principles, not strike under government protection.
    Are you for real? :eyeball:

    You'd expect a large group of employees (bus drivers, train drivers, teachers, whatever) who are dissatisfied with their working conditions to all somehow find new and convenient jobs simultaneously? :wtf: And if somehow this feat can't be accomplished, you expect them to simply put up with whatever **** their employer throws at them?

    In the best of times this would be impossible let alone in the current climate.

    Which leads to me to ask...have you ever actually worked in the real world?

    Kibalchich was right, you sound totally naive about working life.
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    (Original post by moregano)
    Wrong. You've secured pay rises without being a paid-up member of a union. If there had never been any unions or any industrial action in this country, you wouldn't have had a pay rise, you'd be paid far less, you could be sacked at any moment for any reason or none, you'd have no paid holiday or sick leave, your workplace might be a dangerous environment and you might be expected to work 60+ hours a week, or given a zero hour contract with no guarantee of a regular income.

    This, exactly. Well said.
    I'm not debating whether unions helped achieve this however i'm sure there were many things they achieved via affiliation to the Labour party that they did not strike for. I acknowledge working conditions, i simply feel that negotiation and political influence is the best way to go about it.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    If I felt a need for it maybe, but generally I'd say no.

    Unions tend to be a front for Left politics and very self-serving. Plus, I wouldn't want to contribute to the Labour Party :mmm:

    Plus, I see myself as more of a middle management kind of guy anyway.
    I'd high-five you if I could, I completely agree! However in an organisation such as the NHS I really felt a need.

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Yes which is why people should simply find another job for back-up, go to their current employer and then ask for a pay rise. If you bargain with your labour in such a way you should be willing to act on your principles, not strike under government protection.
    What about for other issues other than a payrise? My friend (and former colleague) is a union rep who had to fight for a woman who lost her job due to too much sick leave when she had cancer (ironically she was fired from an oncology hospital), whilst she was unfit to work they tried to dismiss her without giving her the severance package she was entitled to. As I said in my earlier post my issues came when my contract was changed against my will from anywhere between 8am and 8pm Mon to Fri to 24/7. It's not that easy for every member of staff to walk out and find something new, in fact out of all the 50 or so people I worked with I was the only one who managed it and even then it was only because the union slowed down the process; The unions helped secure a fair shift rota for staff by ensuring the staff were consulted. The original proposals didn't even allow for the number of staff in the department and was completely unfeasible.

    I will admit that unions do sometimes give support to completely incompetent people and sometimes they let people down (I've seen both first hand) but not all employers are the most supportive and it's not always about money.
 
 
 
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