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Bring back the wolf? Good idea? Watch

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    (Original post by miser)
    What is your argument for doing so? I don't see you mentioning any upsides, yet there are many obvious potential downsides.
    Upsides

    Restoring an animal into a natural habitat - as mentioned
    Restoring order in the food chain (deer, foxes etc) - as mentioned
    Tourism will increase, the introduction of wolves in Yellowstone saw a $35million benefit. The same may not happen in the UK but who is to say it wouldn't.
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    (Original post by Mockery)
    So did polar bears, should we bring those back too?
    Polar bears in the UK?

    I believe the polar bear is a descendant of the Irish Brown Bear, however I have never heard of a polar bear ever existing in Ireland or Britain.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Yip, absolutely right. Fed up with eating boring old deer which is plentiful, the wolves and bears will team up and enter an urban environment where they are outnumbered by a population of a much bigger and smarter animal and single out the small child which has been conveniently abandoned on the side of the road...

    There are farms in Australia bigger than Wales yet the Australians are able to deal with the dingos just fine. If a farmer is incapable of defending a tiny area of quite few sheep (in comparison) then that is down to lazyness due to not taking enough precautions.
    Since you have no response to my other points so I assume that you agree with them.

    Bears do not live soley on meat; the eat a variety of fruit and vegetables also. These will encourage bears to enter human territory particularly during the winter months where these foods are scarce. Have you not noticed all the precautions, particularly in American, in relation to bears? British Columbia for example has many deer species however human-bear contact is a regular occurrence.

    Wolves can become habituated to human presence and will have no fear moving into human territory. Why waste energy hunting down a deer when you can nab a woman or a child more easily (especially if they are stupidly offering food to the animal).

    And I think you will find that "Dingo attacks on livestock, however, are fairly common occurrences and a serious concern for the Australian livestock industry."
    Would seem that farmers don't deal with dingos just fine. http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/objtwr/im...ddf/f12400.pdf
    There have also been numerous dingo attacks on humans.

    And with regards to protection of such vast expanses of land it can be very costly. In the Highland Wildlife Park the Polar Bear open enclosure is surrounded by fencing that is used at an Arctic Research station because they couldn't come up with foolproof methods. Again this was costly.

    You, again, seem to have little argument for the benefits. Neg me all you want; other people seem to agree...
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    Polar bears in the UK?

    I believe the polar bear is a descendant of the Irish Brown Bear, however I have never heard of a polar bear ever existing in Ireland or Britain.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...o-Britain.html

    I'll look for something a little more up to date too.
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    (Original post by Mockery)
    So did polar bears, should we bring those back too?

    As for people talking about it being a measure to control the deer population, why don't we instead promote a market for venision and allow for restricted levels of hunting to take place?
    That's a terrible argument. I've read the article you posted.

    Firstly you're comparing an animal from around 50,000 years ago to one that was around 600 years ago.

    Secondly it's hardly native. The article states

    New evidence from fossils found in Irish caves shows that modern polar bars evolved from a single female brown bear at the peak of the last ice age.
    There hasn't exactly been tales of polar bears and England. Whereas wolves are a part of folklore.

    Yes there are alternatives to reintroducing wolves. However by bringing back wolves we're reintroducing that was apart of Britain for many years, one that can reduce the deer problem and could be sustained with the right attention to stop unnecessary problems.
    Increase tourism too.

    Comparing wolves to polar bears is ridiculous.

    The article stated that it occurred during the last ice age. I don't see us in an ice age right now, just some odd snow... People and their fallacies.
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    (Original post by Tweek)
    That's a terrible argument. I've read the article you posted.

    Firstly you're comparing an animal from around 50,000 years ago to one that was around 600 years ago.

    Secondly it's hardly native. The article states



    There hasn't exactly been tales of polar bears and England. Whereas wolves are a part of folklore.

    Yes there are alternatives to reintroducing wolves. However by bringing back wolves we're reintroducing that was apart of Britain for many years, one that can reduce the deer problem and could be sustained with the right attention to stop unnecessary problems.
    Increase tourism too.

    Comparing wolves to polar bears is ridiculous.

    The article stated that it occurred during the last ice age. I don't see us in an ice age right now, just some odd snow... People and their fallacies.
    Ah ok, so it only counts if recorded meetings between humans and the animals in question has taken place, and therefore polar bears wouldn't have any effect on tourism..

    Introducing these species sounds all fine and dandy from a conservational and animal loving point of view, but is there really the need to aggravate all the farmers and mothers who worry about absolutely everything being a threat to their childrens safety?

    Again, as a control measure for the deer population is a poor argument for several reasons:

    - Introducing wolves and bears into England would be down right silly since most of the landscape is urbanised and/or overcrowded, yet the deer problem here will persist.
    - Exploiting deer for its meat instead will open a whole new market and possibly pump much needed cash into the economy.
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    The problem I can see is cross breeding between domestic dogs and wolves = wolf dogs which the majority of the public wouldn't have a clue how to deal with.

    So they'd effectively be more domesticated wolves which is where the problem starts.

    Unfortunately there would be one idiot who let his dog out on heat and it got caught by a wolf.
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    (Original post by Mockery)
    Ah ok, so it only counts if recorded meetings between humans and the animals in question has taken place, and therefore polar bears wouldn't have any effect on tourism..

    Introducing these species sounds all fine and dandy from a conservational and animal loving point of view, but is there really the need to aggravate all the farmers and mothers who worry about absolutely everything being a threat to their childrens safety?

    Again, as a control measure for the deer population is a poor argument for several reasons:

    - Introducing wolves and bears into England would be down right silly since most of the landscape is urbanised and/or overcrowded, yet the deer problem here will persist.
    - Exploiting deer for its meat instead will open a whole new market and possibly pump much needed cash into the economy.
    My point of view was based on the Scottish Highlands.
    I've stated in my earlier post it would be pointless to attempt to reintroduce them to England due to the population. However in Scotland it is viable.

    I didn't say it was the only option but that it's a viable one with other benefits. As stated in these articles:-
    Here dated 1999, here dated 2002 and here dated 2007.

    If it was that simple to just exploit deer for their meat why hasn't it been done already?

    Farmers have backed a reintroduction as long as there would be a fee reimbursed upon livestock being killed. Obviously some do oppose as well.
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    (Original post by bestofyou)
    I really don't sympathise that a few people have less of a reason to kill an animal for fun. I have nothing against hunting, just won't lose any sleep over there being less game for them.

    Besides, wolf hunting would likely be needed in order to keep wolves from approaching humans anyway, they can just switch to an animal that can defend itself a little better than deer.
    Oh no, I'm not saying that less deer hunting is a bad thing, I was just saying that it's a reason that people may oppose bringing back wolves. Personally I don't see the appeal of hunting, but in regards to deer it can be necessary to keep the numbers down.
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    Did no one else think he was talking about the Gladiator?
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    (Original post by Mockery)
    - Introducing wolves and bears into England would be down right silly since most of the landscape is urbanised and/or overcrowded, yet the deer problem here will persist.
    What a surprise. Mention the UK and automatically it becomes an English issue.


    (Original post by sophmay)
    Since you have no response to my other points so I assume that you agree with them.

    Bears do not live soley on meat; the eat a variety of fruit and vegetables also. These will encourage bears to enter human territory particularly during the winter months where these foods are scarce. Have you not noticed all the precautions, particularly in American, in relation to bears? British Columbia for example has many deer species however human-bear contact is a regular occurrence.

    Wolves can become habituated to human presence and will have no fear moving into human territory. Why waste energy hunting down a deer when you can nab a woman or a child more easily (especially if they are stupidly offering food to the animal).

    And I think you will find that "Dingo attacks on livestock, however, are fairly common occurrences and a serious concern for the Australian livestock industry."
    Would seem that farmers don't deal with dingos just fine. http://www.agric.wa.gov.au/objtwr/im...ddf/f12400.pdf
    There have also been numerous dingo attacks on humans.

    And with regards to protection of such vast expanses of land it can be very costly. In the Highland Wildlife Park the Polar Bear open enclosure is surrounded by fencing that is used at an Arctic Research station because they couldn't come up with foolproof methods. Again this was costly.

    You, again, seem to have little argument for the benefits. Neg me all you want; other people seem to agree...

    I never negged you.

    However it wouldn't be unjustified if I did as you clearly know very little of bears or wolves as what you are saying is mostly untrue.

    I will start with your bears remark, the brown bear has <20% of meat in its diet and the rest can be found in the forest be it insects, nuts, fruit or vegetation. The pose much less of a threat than domestic dogs do to humans. Even if a human encounters a bear, it is very easy to get back out of the encounter unharmed as bears will do anything to avoid human contact, they do not prey on humans. In fact the polar bear is the only animal in the world that is known to stalk humans.

    Certainly there are precautions, it would be stupid to ignore the threat of a bear. However provided you are making enough noise to keep a bear at bay or not to startle it, a bear is the least of your worries.

    Wolves do have a fear of moving into human areas. It is only those that grow used to human contact that begin to grow less and less fearful. But as stated, there are clear signs of this happening and the final step which is a human attack can be avoided be killing that wolf before it reaches that point.

    For a pack animal to move out of its natural environment where its hunting style is most effective and into an urban environment to kill humans is ridiculous. Wolf attacks are rare in urban environment, when they do occur it is a dog/cat that is attacked. This is a step in one of the signs I mentioned. Human attacks are very very very rare. You make it sound like the deer have special weapons making it near impossible for a wolf to kill them. At the same time you descirbe a town where women and children enjoy falling asleep on the footpaths at night, unattended waiting for a wolf to pass through. Trust me, a deer is by far an easier option. I am pretty sure no person aware that a wolf is not a pet would be trying to feed it. If they do try and feed it, no sympathy for them.


    In the highlands, sheep farming is not a profitable industry therefore not a lively hood, sheep will die but that is just the way it will be. In farms that are profitable, no fences are installed for foxes etc so why would a wolf be any different? A bear proof fence is not needed. Even if it was, there are charities that would provide compensation for livestock and for a fence if it can be proven it will be cheaper long term.

    As for dingo attacks on humans, most occur on fraser island. This is due to idiots feeding them and them getting used to human contact, again, not much of an issue in this case. Dingo attacks are very rare.


    (Original post by Mockery)
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...o-Britain.html

    I'll look for something a little more up to date too.
    This is not evidence that polar bears were ever in Ireland/Britain. As I said, the polar bear is related to the Irish brown bear, that is not the same as polar bears coming from Ireland. This argument has the same type of flaws as saying the Labrador dog is actually from Portugal.
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    It's a shame all of the unicorns died out.
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    Some people on this thread are being ridiculous. A deer goring someone with their antlers? lol That never happended. Deer run as soon as they see you. I do agree that England for the most part is too overpopulated for wolves. However lynx are also a native species and would pose less of a threat to humans. They would control deer numbers and be great for eco tourism. Wouldnn't it be cool to go up to the highlands or the lake district or northumberland national park and have the chance of seeing a lynx? The uk lacks a top predator (if you don't count golden eagles/ white tailed sea eagles). Imo wolves no, lynx yes!
 
 
 
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