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To the people that support redistribution of income... Watch

  • View Poll Results: Do you support the following?
    I support the redistribution of income and marks
    0.91%
    I support the redistribution of income, but not marks
    47.27%
    I support the redistribution of marks, but not income
    0
    0%
    I support neither form of redistribution
    52.73%

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    Would you also support the redistribution of test scores?

    Let's take three examples:

    A earns £1,000,000 as the CEO of a company that manufactures steel.
    B earns £75,000 as an accountant in that company.
    C earns £15,000 as an office cleaner in that company.

    Do you support redistributing income from A to B?
    Do you support redistributing income from A to B and C?
    Do you support redistributing income from A to C?
    Do you support redistributing income from A and B to C?

    And now consider a different situation:

    A scores 90% on an A-level English paper.
    B scores 70% on the same paper.
    C scores 45% on the same paper.

    All the students are in the same classroom, with the same teacher, in the same school. None of the students get private tuition.

    Do you support redistributing marks from A to B?
    Do you support redistributing marks from A to B and C?
    Do you support redistributing marks from A to C?
    Do you support redistributing marks from A and B to C?

    Please answer yes or no to each of the questions above, and state your reasons.
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    And as I say, if the choice is between collecting shiny green gems on a computer screen or talking about things I believe, I'll go for the latter.

    The popularity of my beliefs is not the metric by which I decide my morality.
    If you were a politician you'd probably get my vote for being sincere and honest!
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    To InnerTemple; why did you decide that way?
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    (Original post by CheeseMunchies)
    "Would you also support the redistribution of test scores?"

    hahahahahahahahhaaaaaa I f*cking love it!!! hahaa
    Ok.
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    The money one is utter rubbish. The CEO and accountant obviously have more demanding and risky jobs, hence the higher pay. If money was redistributed you'd have millions of people taking part time cleaner jobs and getting paid £50,000 for it.

    I didn't read the other example.
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    (Original post by Runninground)
    The money one is utter rubbish. The CEO and accountant obviously have more demanding and risky jobs, hence the higher pay. If money was redistributed you'd have millions of people taking part time cleaner jobs and getting paid £50,000 for it.

    I didn't read the other example.

    Indeed. What could be more risky than sitting on your arse in an office all day? Certainly not working with boiling hot metal in a foundry or mining ore.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Indeed. What could be more risky than sitting on your arse in an office all day? Certainly not working with boiling hot metal in a foundry or mining ore.
    Risk is but one component in a matrix of factors that determine the level of remuneration one receives.

    One's level of production is the overriding determinant factor.
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    And as I say, if the choice is between collecting shiny green gems on a computer screen or talking about things I believe, I'll go for the latter.

    The popularity of my beliefs is not the metric by which I decide my morality.
    I would say about 90% of those on TSR with the red gems are those with their feet fixed firmly on the ground...

    All the green gem-ers are most likely lib dem wannabes...... "everyone has the right to a family and society should fund it for them if they cant" type-of-crap
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    (Original post by billydisco)
    I would say about 90% of those on TSR with the red gems are those with their feet fixed firmly on the ground...

    All the green gem-ers are most likely lib dem wannabes...... "everyone has the right to a family and society should fund it for them if they cant" type-of-crap
    Quite.
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    One's level of production is the overriding determinant factor.
    And unfortunately, 'production level' is determined purely in terms of 'how much money did you earn the company'. Well, the cleaner obviously didn't broker new deals, while some people in the management did. Still, the cleaners job is definitely not something a lot of people would like to do, even if there was equal pay. Most people don't fancy cleaning toilets. So... on what ground can one declare that the CEO was more productive?
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    (Original post by Elcano)
    And unfortunately, 'production level' is determined purely in terms of 'how much money did you earn the company'. Well, the cleaner obviously didn't broker new deals, while some people in the management did. Still, the cleaners job is definitely not something a lot of people would like to do, even if there was equal pay. Most people don't fancy cleaning toilets. So... on what ground can one declare that the CEO was more productive?
    On the same grounds anyone is productive: by how much value they create for you; how much better off they make you in terms of utility or 'happiness'.

    When you go to the hairdresser, do you pay them according to how much money they make you? Of course not. You go to a hairdresser where you believe that the price charged reflects how much happier you are with your new haircut vs how happy you would be with your old haircut, against the amount of other hairdressers that could provide the same haircut.

    You value a cleaner by determining how much happier you are with a clean office than a dirty one, against the amount of other people that could provide the same outcome.

    It's really that easy; you measure your increase in utility and assign it a monetary value, then adjust it according to simple supply and demand.

    What about that did you find unclear?
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    One's level of production is the overriding determinant factor.
    Maybe it should be, but it isn't.

    I work in a retail environment in a team of 6. The highest paid member of that team earns an annual salary of £23000. The shop is a very productive one and makes a net profit of over £600,000 per annum. That's after wages.

    It's part of a chain with identical staffing levels and wage structures. Many shops in the chain make net profits of < £50k per annum.

    The reason we are so productive is because we work incredibly hard to trample the local competition. I'd be bloody laughing if production level was reflected in wages.

    So yes... in your idealised world where this is the case, then perhaps there is no reason for wealth redistribution. In our current capitalist structure where the wages of over 99% of a company's employees are arbitrary and in no way linked to profits ... it seems pretty much essential.
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    (Original post by Bhumbauze)
    Maybe it should be, but it isn't.

    I work in a retail environment in a team of 6. The highest paid member of that team earns an annual salary of £23000. The shop is a very productive one and makes a net profit of over £600,000 per annum. That's after wages.

    It's part of a chain with identical staffing levels and wage structures. Many shops in the chain make net profits of < £50k per annum.

    The reason we are so productive is because we work incredibly hard to trample the local competition. I'd be bloody laughing if production level was reflected in wages.

    So yes... in your idealised world where this is the case, then perhaps there is no reason for wealth redistribution. In our current capitalist structure where the wages of over 99% of a company's employees are arbitrary and in no way linked to profits ... it seems pretty much essential.
    Why are you still working there then? I wouldn't work somewhere that refused to acknowledge I was more productive than other people within the organisation. And before you ask - yes, my pay is performance-related.
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    I'm getting really sick of all these silly threads. The problem at the moment is huge redistribution of income from the poor to the rich on a scale unprecedented since Victorian times, not the other way round. Basically OP and buddies of OP, cut it out.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm getting really sick of all these silly threads. The problem at the moment is huge redistribution of income from the poor to the rich on a scale unprecedented since Victorian times, not the other way round. Basically OP and buddies of OP, cut it out.
    Heh. How do you figure? Go on, explain it to me.
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    So far, nobody has explained why they support redistribution of income but not marks.

    Please, explain it to me. What's the moral difference?
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    Why are you still working there then? I wouldn't work somewhere that refused to acknowledge I was more productive than other people within the organisation. And before you ask - yes, my pay is performance-related.
    Because the vast majority of organisations pay arbitrary salaries unrelated to performance. I actually am (endlessly) on the lookout for alternative employment, although my long-term goal doesn't involve having an employer at all and will therefore, I suppose, be entirely performance-based. The truth is, there is very little to apply for at all that pays better than what I'm currently doing (and doesn't require specific academic or vocational qualifications) let alone anything with a performance related wage structure.

    I'm still working there because I have to keep a roof over my head while I work towards something better.

    So yes... I don't necessarily disagree with you that there are a multitude of reasons that performance-related wages across the board would be a positive thing for everyone, on both a small and large scale. I know for a fact that the productivity levels of the company I work for would probably skyrocket; the arbitrary wages make it so that employees aren't concerned with doing more than "the bare minimum" as effort goes completely unrewarded. A recent structure reshuffle means that even promotion or any sort of mobility within the company is all but impossible. It's a mess.

    HOWEVER - this is not how companies in this country operate. You're making an argument based on what may well be sound theory, but unless that theory is put into practice from the top down within the large companies that dominate the job market in this country, it simply isn't going to work on a large scale. There just aren't enough performance-related positions... by orders of magnitude... to make it viable for everyone.
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    This analogy is so stupid. I mean really.
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    (Original post by Redolent)
    This analogy is so stupid. I mean really.
    Please explain why.
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    (Original post by Aspiringlawstudent)
    So far, nobody has explained why they support redistribution of income but not marks.

    Please, explain it to me. What's the moral difference?
    Same answer as I've already given, really. Marks reflect effort (well... that's not entirely true... they reflect a combination of effort and natural ability) no matter how you look at it - wages paid in this country, currently, are preset arbitrary values that do not reflect effort nor ability.

    The way wages work in the UK is more akin to being told, upon entering an exam;

    "You're going to get 60% on this exam. You can answer every question with a completely perfect, original, inspired answer OR you can draw a massive **** across the page. It doesn't matter. You'll get 60% either way. So will Bob and Tim. Sue's getting 67% . Good luck everyone!"
 
 
 
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