Join TSR now and chat about whatever you’re intoSign up now

Doctor Who - Discussion Thread III (no untagged future spoilers) Watch

  • View Poll Results: What did you think about the first storyline of series 9?
    Excellent
    0
    0%
    Good
    0
    0%
    Average
    0
    0%
    Poor
    0
    0%
    Awful
    0
    0%

    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Scienceisgood)
    There's only one thing that bugs me, the prophecy states "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

    I somewhat agree that John Hurt is the 9th Doctor, however, that would make Matt Smith's Doctor the 12th making the prophecy null and void.
    Unless The Doctor made the prophecy himself because he doesn't the 9th version of himself to be the Doctor at all. =l
    Speculation:

    Tennant returns in the 50th because he is the actual 11th.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Things that are bugging me about this episode:

    - The origin of "run you clever boy and remember" makes no sense at all. It was original Clara's wifi password, but that doesn't explain why she decided to say it before walking into the time stream.
    - Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?
    - The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I just can't accept the fact that John Hurt is 9 or 8 or whatever. no. way no. That just seems waaaayyy to simple
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by snowyowl)
    As in... Screen episodes with him as the Valeyard? I don't think I'd like that.
    Neither would I - it'd be heart-breaking to watch.

    Unless he goes into some sort of multiple personality disorder phase - in which case that'd still be heart-breaking, but more surprising than just dark.

    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    And just re-watched the final scene there: I don't think the Hurt Doctor revealed his name - I agree with the interpretation that the Hurt Doctor did harm (hence breaking the promise of the Doctor; primum non nocere) - perhaps he's the one who ended the Time War (I'm hoping this; I'd love to hear more about what went down), perhaps it's something else we haven't heard of yet.

    "He is my secret." - implies that it was something done in the Doctor's past, they also made a big deal of Eleven being the 11th Doctor in the dialogue, I think this gives the speculation about the Hurt Doctor's identity some weight.
    "What I did, I did without choice [this is how Nine and Ten justified the bispecial genocide] ... In the name of peace, and sanity [this one doesn't fit the Time War for me. It doesn't seem like the event was about bringing peace - what was there left to bring peace to when both sides perished? However, I can see how it can be interpreted as applying to the Time War - bringing peace to the rest of the universe, who no longer had to face certain destruction]."
    "But not in the name of the Doctor." - hence justifying Nine, Ten and Eleven feeling they are those respective numbers; the actions were so atrocious that he couldn't even be called the Doctor - he wasn't the Doctor. Not in their eyes.
    I don't think they really made such a big deal about Matt being the 11th Doctor in the dialogue (assuming you mean when Clara said "11 faces, all of them are you. You're the 11th Doctor.").

    Like you said, if Hurt's Doctor was in fact the Doctor in the time war, then he would undoubtedly be considered not the Doctor owing to the fact that he broke the promise of his name. I think Clara's statement "you're the 11th doctor" is just echoing this fact.

    Could be wrong of course. Always a possibility Hurt's Doctor did something even worse that whatever he did during the time war.
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    I loved last nights episode, haven't felt so hyped at an ending of a Dr Who finale since I was much younger.

    I get the feeling that hurt is the Doctor in-between McGann and Eccleston. His outfit in leaked photos suggests this, and I sense that he was probably the Doctor that killed off all of the Timelords - something the Doctor knows he had to do, but something that torments him more than anything else and something he wants to hide away. That being said, that doesn't exactly make Hurt's doctor a "secret" if what he did was something as enormous as annihilating two of the largest empires in all of space and time. So maybe something else is on the cards.

    Anyway I think if hurt is the "real" 9th Doctor then this maybe explains why none of the classic era Doctors have been asked to return, it probably wouldn't be appropriate for them to meet this future Doctor who ends up being a character who defines the ones that lived after them, having him know what he does before he does it, whilst being an interesting idea, would probably be a little messy and lessen its effect on Hurt's Dr and all that followed.
    • Clearing and Applications Advisor
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    Things that are bugging me about this episode:

    - The origin of "run you clever boy and remember" makes no sense at all. It was original Clara's wifi password, but that doesn't explain why she decided to say it before walking into the time stream.
    Clara said it when walking into the time stream because she thought she was going to die - she wanted the Doctor to run, to save himself, and she wanted him to remember her. Hence, she found the wifi mnemonic fitting. The fact she finds the phrase so significant also explains its earlier use in her other incarnation.
    Soufflé girl says it because she's a fragment (i.e. after walking into the time stream), so still remembers it. Same with Victorian London.

    -Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?
    The Doctor told her why he was ignoring her! A very heartstring tugging reason. <3

    It's easily explained, though. River was wrong! Since The Doctor was always ignoring River, it makes sense that she thinks that he couldn't really see or hear her - hence why she thought she was only mentally linked with Clara.

    - The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.
    This is the first thing that came to mind for me. I loved everything about The Doctor's Wife and the Doctor/TARDIS relationship and want that to be preserved in my little fangirl heart forever, so I rationalised it away. Sexy said that she left herself unlocked (not that she left her doors open) so that she could steal the Doctor. The Doctor walks in - sees the doors open, so naturally goes to steal the opened one. Clara steps in to make sure he takes the correct TARDIS (who's unlocked, but the doors are closed). She even mentions the navigation system being a bit naff (reinforcing the TARDIS' personality - not always taking him where he wanted to go (hence it being dubbed malfunctional) but taking him where he needed to go), bringing it all full circle.

    And hell, being able to make it look like JLC is talking to William Hartnell is cool as ****.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    Things that are bugging me about this episode:

    - The origin of "run you clever boy and remember" makes no sense at all. It was original Clara's wifi password, but that doesn't explain why she decided to say it before walking into the time stream.
    - Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?
    - The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.
    I can't say much about your latter 2 points, but for the first one:

    Before she walked into the time stream, Clara began to remember the times she saved the Doctor in his timeline - she specifically remembered the Asylum of the Daleks when she said "run you clever boy, and remember". Like in the Asylum episode, she wanted the Doctor to live on and remember her.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    The whole Clara in his past thing reminded me a bit of this:

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    Clara said it when walking into the time stream because she thought she was going to die - she wanted the Doctor to run, to save himself, and she wanted him to remember her. Hence, she found the wifi mnemonic fitting. The fact she finds the phrase so significant also explains its earlier use in her other incarnation.
    Soufflé girl says it because she's a fragment (i.e. after walking into the time stream), so still remembers it. Same with Victorian London.
    (Original post by Kagutsuchi)
    I can't say much about your latter 2 points, but for the first one:

    Before she walked into the time stream, Clara began to remember the times she saved the Doctor in his timeline - she specifically remembered the Asylum of the Daleks when she said "run you clever boy, and remember". Like in the Asylum episode, she wanted the Doctor to live on and remember her.
    It just seems a bit odd that, at a major time like walking to her almost certain death to save her alien friend - she would then remember a random mnemonic of her wifi password and decide it made for fitting last words.

    The Doctor told her why he was ignoring her! A very heartstring tugging reason. <3

    It's easily explained, though. River was wrong! Since The Doctor was always ignoring River, it makes sense that she thinks that he couldn't really see or hear her - hence why she thought she was only mentally linked with Clara.
    Bah, a silly reason. If the Doctor had been able to see River since she was put into the library (which was a really long time ago now), it seems ridiculous that he would have been completely ignoring her for that long. It makes no logical sense. :unimpressed:

    OK, so River may have been wrong. But there's no explanation for how or why that could happen. River thought she was there because she was still connected to Clara from the conference call. But if that's not it, then how is she able to be there? She's a digital ghost, existing in a library somewhere completely distant in both time and space. And yet somehow she is able to just.. be there. And no-one questions it or wonders how it could be.

    This is the first thing that came to mind for me. I loved everything about The Doctor's Wife and the Doctor/TARDIS relationship and want that to be preserved in my little fangirl heart forever, so I rationalised it away. Sexy said that she left herself unlocked (not that she left her doors open) so that she could steal the Doctor. The Doctor walks in - sees the doors open, so naturally goes to steal the opened one. Clara steps in to make sure he takes the correct TARDIS (who's unlocked, but the doors are closed). She even mentions the navigation system being a bit naff (reinforcing the TARDIS' personality - not always taking him where he wanted to go (hence it being dubbed malfunctional) but taking him where he needed to go), bringing it all full circle.

    And hell, being able to make it look like JLC is talking to William Hartnell is cool as ****.
    I still really don't like the fact that Clara interferes with something so central, though. It feels like it ruins the feeling of that meaningful first meeting, because they were actually 'set up' together by an external influence (Clara). And I'm not a classic Who purist or anything. I just don't like the way Moffat dives in and rips apart everything that's ever been done before him as if he has no obligation to at least preserve the show's continuity.
    • Clearing and Applications Advisor
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Kagutsuchi)
    Before she walked into the time stream, Clara began to remember the times she saved the Doctor in his timeline - she specifically remembered the Asylum of the Daleks when she said "run you clever boy, and remember". Like in the Asylum episode, she wanted the Doctor to live on and remember her.
    Are you sure? I don't think she was remembering the times she saved the Doctor (she certainly remembered her journey to the centre of the TARDIS, but saving the Doctor hadn't even happened in her timeline yet), but to me it seems like she just worked out why the Doctor had seen her twice before - she worked out that the reason he'd seen her before is because she was "destined" to walk into his timestream.

    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    It just seems a bit odd that, at a major time like walking to her almost certain death to save her alien friend - she would then remember a random mnemonic of her wifi password and decide it made for fitting last words.
    Not in my opinion, considering the externally obvious significance those words had to the Doctor when they first met. It wasn't that she was remembering a mnemonic - she was remembering something significant, which just happened to be a mnemonic. The soufflé isn't the soufflé; the soufflé is the recipe.

    Bah, a silly reason. If the Doctor had been able to see River since she was put into the library (which was a really long time ago now), it seems ridiculous that he would have been completely ignoring her for that long. It makes no logical sense. :unimpressed:
    You're interpreting "always" very, very literally. It doesn't necessarily mean he's been able to see her since the library (it would have taken her a while to figure out how to project herself, after all), and it doesn't necessarily mean every waking moment either (although I like this interpretation best); it may very well mean that he always sees her whenever she wants to project herself, or may even be a piece of romantic rhetoric - just like when you lose a loved one ('they'll always be there in your heart' kind of deal); perhaps even that he constantly sees things that remind him of her.

    OK, so River may have been wrong. But there's no explanation for how or why that could happen. River thought she was there because she was still connected to Clara from the conference call. But if that's not it, then how is she able to be there? She's a digital ghost, existing in a library somewhere completely distant in both time and space. And yet somehow she is able to just.. be there. And no-one questions it or wonders how it could be.
    Suspension of disbelief. You're watching a sci-fi show, you'd have a bloody miserably time if you questioned every mechanic: how does a screwdriver that makes soundwaves open doors!? How can a box be bigger on the inside - how do you access these other dimensions? How do you travel through time and space and speeds greater than light? How do you ... you get the point. There's a reason that sci-fi writers rely on your suspension of disbelief on these things - because their explanations would just sound rubbish, it's why the Doctor always gives a wishy washy "oh it's a rip in the fabric of time and space" explanation as opposed to a technical explanation. Suspend a little disbelief and it all makes perfect sense and can even sound quite poetic at times!

    I still really don't like the fact that Clara interferes with something so central, though. It feels like it ruins the feeling of that meaningful first meeting, because they were actually 'set up' together by an external influence (Clara). And I'm not a classic Who purist or anything. I just don't like the way Moffat dives in and rips apart everything that's ever been done before him as if he has no obligation to at least preserve the show's continuity.
    How the Doctor stole the TARDIS wasn't even a topic of discussion in Classic Who, I don't think!

    I certainly don't get the feeling that Moffat is ripping apart the canon that came before him, quite the opposite in fact, he's reinforcing it: look at all the monsters he's brought back (The Great Intelligence was from the 1970s, and he was the major baddie of this series); look at all the references that've been made to things in the Classic show (and he's kept them all accurate - the eye of Harmony, for example - the only inconsistency is that the eye of Harmony was on Gallifrey, but here it's in the TARDIS. However, this is an inconsistency that dates back to Paul McGann, so fans who were fans before we were even born have already come up with some good headcanon to rationalise it for us. ); I think he takes care not to butcher any of the 'main' points of Classic Who.

    Personally, I don't think it makes the first meeting any less meaningful.


    (Original post by pinkpenguin)
    Leaning more and more to the '9th incarnation' theory. Hurt is a great actor, and when he turns at the end of the episode he looks distressed/sad/traumatised rather than 'bad'.
    That's the whole point! From the dialogue, it seems to me that the Hurt Doctor isn't supposed to be a bad person. He's a good person who felt that he had to do a terrible thing (and who knows at this point, perhaps he really DIDN'T have any alternative?), and understandly feels terrible about it. Hence why he looks so distressed.

    It's worth noting that Time Lords choose their names when they're young (Ten describes 90 years old as being 'just a kid'), and Hartnell was only a couple of hundred years old when he stole the TARDIS. I think it'd be hard to fit a regeneration in there prior to being Hartnell!
    • Clearing and Applications Advisor
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ape Gone Insane)
    Not really. Plenty of science fiction writers can give satisfactory explanations through the genre of hard science fiction. It's more that Doctor Who is 'soft' science fiction. It doesn't exist to explain the technical details of how it's science works, it exists to put the so-called science elements in the background so they can further the emphasis on story and characters. You're not supposed to pull back the curtain in soft science fiction, whereas you are invited to do so in hard science fiction.
    Great point, and you're completely right. I didn't have the distinction between 'hard' and 'soft' in my head, but I was quite merrily ignoring writers like Asimov when I made that statement and was thinking more... Douglas Adams, which I guess you'd say are hard and soft respectively?

    Edit: That doesn't entirely address what you were saying: I'm not saying Douglas Adams gives "****ty explanations", but rather that he relies on you to go along with it.
    I guess I made such a sweeping statement because my dad watches a lot of those 'straight-to-TV' sci-fi films and they are really...really terribly written.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    - Pretty much River's whole existence no longer makes sense. How long has she been a ghost that the Doctor has been able to see but for some reason has been ignoring her? How can she possibly be visible to the doctor anyway if her only connection was supposedly through Clara? And how could she activate the TARDIS when, again, she is only connected to Clara?.
    I took it to mean that the Doctor had always been able to see her in this episode. She thought she was only connected to Clara but as the Doctor could see her too, he somehow kept her there after Clara left. (Something to do with telepathic links I expect).
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    Not in my opinion, considering the externally obvious significance those words had to the Doctor when they first met. It wasn't that she was remembering a mnemonic - she was remembering something significant, which just happened to be a mnemonic. The soufflé isn't the soufflé; the soufflé is the recipe.
    But original Clara (that is, the modern one we've had for most of the series) hasn't said those words to the Doctor before. Her echoes said them to him, but she hasn't. So there's no reason she should attach significance to them until she's said them, entered the time stream, and become an echo. It's like.. begging the question. In sci-fi form.

    You're interpreting "always" very, very literally. It doesn't necessarily mean he's been able to see her since the library (it would have taken her a while to figure out how to project herself, after all), and it doesn't necessarily mean every waking moment either (although I like this interpretation best); it may very well mean that he always sees her whenever she wants to project herself, or may even be a piece of romantic rhetoric - just like when you lose a loved one ('they'll always be there in your heart' kind of deal); perhaps even that he constantly sees things that remind him of her.
    Ick. I just really don't like the vague wording. The Doctor is never usually much of a ~romantic~, in fact he tends to be logical and literal - which is why I like him. Even if he did mean it in some soppy emotional way, it seems out of character and still kind of annoying.

    Suspension of disbelief. You're watching a sci-fi show, you'd have a bloody miserably time if you questioned every mechanic: how does a screwdriver that makes soundwaves open doors!? How can a box be bigger on the inside - how do you access these other dimensions? How do you travel through time and space and speeds greater than light? How do you ... you get the point. There's a reason that sci-fi writers rely on your suspension of disbelief on these things - because their explanations would just sound rubbish, it's why the Doctor always gives a wishy washy "oh it's a rip in the fabric of time and space" explanation as opposed to a technical explanation. Suspend a little disbelief and it all makes perfect sense and can even sound quite poetic at times!
    Noo! Resorting to 'suspend disbelief' is like cheating for sci-fi writers. There's a difference between creating magical science ("this is a magic screwdriver that can open locks and control machinery and computers"), and simply not even trying to explain ("this person can magically sort of appear.. somehow.. but they're sort of dead.. but not really.. and they're digital.. but real.. and a ghost.. except it's a cross-temporal conference call.."). I'm fine with suspending disbelief when it's clear that's what's meant to happen. I can handle time travel and teleports and bigger-on-the-inside, as long as all the concepts are at least internally consistent. But with River's strange resurrection, there was not even any attempt at explanation.

    How the Doctor stole the TARDIS wasn't even a topic of discussion in Classic Who, I don't think!

    I certainly don't get the feeling that Moffat is ripping apart the canon that came before him, quite the opposite in fact, he's reinforcing it: look at all the monsters he's brought back (The Great Intelligence was from the 1970s, and he was the major baddie of this series); look at all the references that've been made to things in the Classic show (and he's kept them all accurate - the eye of Harmony, for example - the only inconsistency is that the eye of Harmony was on Gallifrey, but here it's in the TARDIS. However, this is an inconsistency that dates back to Paul McGann, so fans who were fans before we were even born have already come up with some good headcanon to rationalise it for us. ); I think he takes care not to butcher any of the 'main' points of Classic Who.

    Personally, I don't think it makes the first meeting any less meaningful.
    I wouldn't know, I've never seen any classic Who anyway.

    I see your point. It's just it sometimes feels like Moffat is giving himself too much power to alter everything and do everything. To have a character (well, two characters) which end up being copied and pasted throughout the Doctor's entire past (and presumably, future?) to affect everything he has ever done or ever will do.. It just seems to extreme. And visiting the Doctor's grave is a really major thing to do, and I think it should have been handled a bit more carefully and just... better. Considering how much of a massively big deal it is supposed to be for a time-traveller to visit their own grave, this episode was a bit of an anti-climax. If the writers can't do it justice, they shouldn't attempt big things like that in the first place.

    ..in my opinion.
    • Clearing and Applications Advisor
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    But original Clara (that is, the modern one we've had for most of the series) hasn't said those words to the Doctor before. Her echoes said them to him, but she hasn't. So there's no reason she should attach significance to them until she's said them, entered the time stream, and become an echo. It's like.. begging the question. In sci-fi form.
    Doctor Who has lots of begging the question in sci-fi form (I think "circular logic" is a better descriptor), but that's simply because of the way time seems to work as a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff in this universe.

    However, I don't think this is one such case. Clara is on the phone with the Doctor while she's typing in the wifi password (thinking he's IT support) and says "Run. You. Clever. Boy. And. Remember." out loud. He's then like "HOLY **** WHAT DID YOU SAY." and rushes in to meet her, recognising that this is his impossible girl.

    Ick. I just really don't like the vague wording. The Doctor is never usually much of a ~romantic~, in fact he tends to be logical and literal - which is why I like him. Even if he did mean it in some soppy emotional way, it seems out of character and still kind of annoying.
    I wouldn't quite call him literal, and all 3 of his recent incarnations can be described as emotional - and I cite Tennant and Rose for a bit of him being romantic. And remember the scene where River died? How he showed up on her doorstep with flowers and a new haircut and brought her to see the singing towers of wherever it was. That sounds pretty romantic to me (even the literal interpretation of "I can always see you, but ignore you because it'd hurt me too much" is super romantic!)

    Vague (maybe not so much vague as much as it is "not clear cut") wording can be great. It's what allows us to have all of these cool interpretations and better connect with characters (because we project our own ideas and personalities onto them - both of us are doing it right here!), and without it we'd miss out on a lot of fun in this thread!

    Noo! Resorting to 'suspend disbelief' is like cheating for sci-fi writers. There's a difference between creating magical science ("this is a magic screwdriver that can open locks and control machinery and computers"), and simply not even trying to explain ("this person can magically sort of appear.. somehow.. but they're sort of dead.. but not really.. and they're digital.. but real.. and a ghost.. except it's a cross-temporal conference call.."). I'm fine with suspending disbelief when it's clear that's what's meant to happen. I can handle time travel and teleports and bigger-on-the-inside, as long as all the concepts are at least internally consistent. But with River's strange resurrection, there was not even any attempt at explanation.
    Fair enough, but I personally don't see much of a difference between "it just CAN travel through time, okay!?" and "I just CAN project myself outside of this computer".


    I see your point. It's just it sometimes feels like Moffat is giving himself too much power to alter everything and do everything. To have a character (well, two characters) which end up being copied and pasted throughout the Doctor's entire past (and presumably, future?) to affect everything he has ever done or ever will do.. It just seems to extreme. And visiting the Doctor's grave is a really major thing to do, and I think it should have been handled a bit more carefully and just... better. Considering how much of a massively big deal it is supposed to be for a time-traveller to visit their own grave, this episode was a bit of an anti-climax. If the writers can't do it justice, they shouldn't attempt big things like that in the first place.

    ..in my opinion.
    It's clear that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - but isn't that part of the beauty of film and literature?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    I just thought of something. In the episode "The God Complex" the Doctor looks into his room and supposedly sees his worst fear. And he says something like "Of course, who else?". I'm going to take a guess that the person he saw is his forgotten regeneration, i.e. the one we saw at the end of this episode played by John Hurt. That was his worst fear. Idk it's just a theory.

    Looking forward to the 50th - hope it's as amazing as Matt Smith says it is or I'm going to be disappointed. Still, it's going to be a real treat seeing how 10th and 11th Doctors interact with each other
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    Doctor Who has lots of begging the question in sci-fi form (I think "circular logic" is a better descriptor), but that's simply because of the way time seems to work as a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey stuff in this universe.
    Yes, true. And it annoys me every time. :rant:

    However, I don't think this is one such case. Clara is on the phone with the Doctor while she's typing in the wifi password (thinking he's IT support) and says "Run. You. Clever. Boy. And. Remember." out loud. He's then like "HOLY **** WHAT DID YOU SAY." and rushes in to meet her, recognising that this is his impossible girl.
    Good point, I had forgotten about that part. It still seems a bit out of the blue in the last episode, but I can see her remembering its relevance in that case.

    I wouldn't quite call him literal, and all 3 of his recent incarnations can be described as emotional - and I cite Tennant and Rose for a bit of him being romantic. And remember the scene where River died? How he showed up on her doorstep with flowers and a new haircut and brought her to see the singing towers of wherever it was. That sounds pretty romantic to me (even the literal interpretation of "I can always see you, but ignore you because it'd hurt me too much" is super romantic!)
    Maybe I didn't mean logical as opposed to emotional, but simply that he likes things to be explained and to understand how things work, like I do. Clara being a big example - the reason he was originally so obsessed with her is because he couldn't figure her out.

    I'm not sure Ten/Rose is particularly romantic? I mean, I know they had romantic feelings towards each other, but I wouldn't say they acted in stereotypically romantic or 'soppy' ways very much. Anyway the thing of people's character completely changing when they are under romantic (i.e. relationshippy) influences annoys me in every context, and the Doctor completely changing his behaviour for River is no exception. It annoys me in real life too, so I guess I can't really blame the show for that.

    Vague (maybe not so much vague as much as it is "not clear cut") wording can be great. It's what allows us to have all of these cool interpretations and better connect with characters (because we project our own ideas and personalities onto them - both of us are doing it right here!), and without it we'd miss out on a lot of fun in this thread!
    Yes yes, you soppy romantic you. I see your point. But I think it should be possible to have things make sci-fi and plot sense, but still allow people to project their own character analyses onto them.

    Fair enough, but I personally don't see much of a difference between "it just CAN travel through time, okay!?" and "I just CAN project myself outside of this computer".
    I think the difference is that the first one is just one thing. It's a simple addition to science. Time travel is possible. Whereas the second one is unclear and non-specific, which makes it harder for me to accept. If it had even a little bit of explanation to simplify it (for example, the library itself has a previously unknown ability to project digital people out into the world through a mysterious/magical mechanism) I would find it easier to deal with.

    It's clear that we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one - but isn't that part of the beauty of film and literature?
    Of course.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    :rant: :woo: LOGIC :woo: :rant:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Watch Key Phone)
    - The bit with Clara being there when the Doctor steals the TARDIS is really annoying. In The Doctor's Wife, the TARDIS says that she stole him, that she left her doors open on purpose. Having Clara there to tell him which one to steal completely destroys that bit of mythology.
    The Great Intelligence intended to scatter himself along the Doctor's timeline and rewrite it to destroy the Doctor. (Somehow tried to make him choose the wrong TARDIS? thus meaning that he would have travelled to different places and not saved people) He enters the rift, however Clara also scatters herself along the timeline and tells 1 to pick the right TARDIS.
    Yes the TARDIS originally 'chose' the Doctor but the great intelligence altered this and Clara had to make the save.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Oooooohhhh mmmmmyyyyy ggggggooooooodddddd
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Just thinking of the Beast Below (which is one of my favourite episodes, I think it's quite underrated), and how the Doctor is agonising over this choice of whether to destroy the star whale, let it suffer or let everyone on the ship die, and then he says "And then I'll have to find a new name, because I won't be the Doctor anymore." I really do think he's the Time War Doctor. He was very angsty in that episode, which wasn't that far away from the Master destroying the Time Lord's again, so he was having to deal with being the only one of his race again, and he says "Nobody human has anything to say to me today!"

    I shouldn't theorise on no sleep.
    Offline

    4
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Dragonrage973)
    I just thought of something. In the episode "The God Complex" the Doctor looks into his room and supposedly sees his worst fear. And he says something like "Of course, who else?". I'm going to take a guess that the person he saw is his forgotten regeneration, i.e. the one we saw at the end of this episode played by John Hurt. That was his worst fear. Idk it's just a theory.

    Looking forward to the 50th - hope it's as amazing as Matt Smith says it is or I'm going to be disappointed. Still, it's going to be a real treat seeing how 10th and 11th Doctors interact with each other
    Oooooh. :holmes:

    It's 3am so that's all I have to say but still.... Oooooh. :-P

    (I do remember thinking at the time that it was probably just himself in that room)

    (Original post by aspirinpharmacist)
    I shouldn't theorise on no sleep.
    Likewise.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: July 28, 2017
Poll
Which Fantasy Franchise is the best?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Quick reply
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.