Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Hello...

    My name is Michael and I am going to be listing various things in bullet points after which I need some help.

    • I have two degrees from university
    • a wealth of experience
    • odd bits of part-time work that have not paid well
    • applied for a 3 jobs at Morrisons and was told I was not successful
    • Gave up applying for menial jobs so applied for something more challenging that would require my degree but still got no jobs
    • got an interview for a job and would have got the job but at the last minute another position became vacant so the scrapped my position as they needed the other one more importantly
    • signed up to the job centre
    • Am 25 years old and living at home
    • the job centre put me, a 25 year old with a MA degree on a course full on 17-18 year olds in which we would learn 'key skills' to help you find work. When I spoke to the leader of the course, after completing a 10 page SIMPLE English and maths test (which some failed to get right??), she told me I had a degree and wondered why I was on this course with such high qualifications
    • applied for voluntary work at Banardos only to be given a 5 page application form, after which I didn't get the job
    • went with the principal of its who you know not what you know. Found and job and strangely my referee knew the employers personally (family related) but I still didn't get the job. My referee and employer have fallen out of me not getting it!
    • went to apply for the graduate fast scheme with the civil service but found the maths and English tests too hard for me and failed it
    • applied for the general civil service but failed the competency questions
    • sent of 20 applications this year, 5 of them got acknowledged
    • asked my friends who work in places if there is anything going but 1 said they wouldn't want you to work with them, and the others seemed to have forgotten I asked. I chased them up to which they replied, there is no jobs going.
    • have people always telling me that something will come up. It never has
    • My dad who has a very high up job and is one of the best CV writers/interviewers around has been writing all my CV's to make then sellable but its not worked.
    • I spent £250 traveling to a job interview that wasn't successful and I didn't get the money back
    • I am poor, broke, 25 and living at home with my parents


    Can someone tell me what is going on? Am I just unlucky? Am I meant to find work?

    Help!
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Sorry to here about the rough time you're having in terms of employment. I don't think you're alone. You said you have a wealth of experience, what fields do you have experience in? And what career are you aiming to get into?

    I'm almost 24 and still living at home if its any consolation I think living at home until your late 20s or early 30s is very common in the UK now, especially in London (though I don't know where you're living) as the cost of living (especially housing) is very high.

    It's also more common than not for employers not to acknowledge receipt of your application as they can get hundreds of people applying to a single vacancy in just the first few hours after it's been posted.

    It's definitely the quality of the applications more than the quantity but 20 applications is not many jobs to apply for in three months.

    They do really need to change things at the job centre, I feel that they aim their services at people with the fewest qualifications, least experience and that are looking for the lowest skills jobs. That means they are not going to be able to help a lot of people, especially at the moment where people with decades worth of experience are also looking for jobs and it's not the case that they just need to improve their literacy, IT and numeracy skills.

    Have you been getting many interviews for the roles you have been applying for? If so, how did they go?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    And I have to say, the friend that said they don't want to work with you isn't your friend at all and not worth your time.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    What are your degrees?. They also may not see you through your CV, if somebody else is writing it then perhaps theirs not enough individual thought gone into it, its the effort that counts
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    There must be something that is stopping you. Something that you're doing wrong. Obviously I don't know what it is, but if you can find it out you may have a better chance.

    How about asking your dad if there is any jobs at the company he works at?

    Maybe try going to networking events for business people and ask them if they have jobs (but not so bluntly). They may be impressed that you took the initiative to go and look for jobs instead of just applying for ones on the internet.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mikeyup)
    Hello...

    My name is Michael and I am going to be listing various things in bullet points after which I need some help.

    • I have two degrees from university
    • a wealth of experience
    • odd bits of part-time work that have not paid well
    • applied for a 3 jobs at Morrisons and was told I was not successful
    • Gave up applying for menial jobs so applied for something more challenging that would require my degree but still got no jobs
    • got an interview for a job and would have got the job but at the last minute another position became vacant so the scrapped my position as they needed the other one more importantly
    • signed up to the job centre
    • Am 25 years old and living at home
    • the job centre put me, a 25 year old with a MA degree on a course full on 17-18 year olds in which we would learn 'key skills' to help you find work. When I spoke to the leader of the course, after completing a 10 page SIMPLE English and maths test (which some failed to get right??), she told me I had a degree and wondered why I was on this course with such high qualifications
    • applied for voluntary work at Banardos only to be given a 5 page application form, after which I didn't get the job
    • went with the principal of its who you know not what you know. Found and job and strangely my referee knew the employers personally (family related) but I still didn't get the job. My referee and employer have fallen out of me not getting it!
    • went to apply for the graduate fast scheme with the civil service but found the maths and English tests too hard for me and failed it
    • applied for the general civil service but failed the competency questions
    • sent of 20 applications this year, 5 of them got acknowledged
    • asked my friends who work in places if there is anything going but 1 said they wouldn't want you to work with them, and the others seemed to have forgotten I asked. I chased them up to which they replied, there is no jobs going.
    • have people always telling me that something will come up. It never has
    • My dad who has a very high up job and is one of the best CV writers/interviewers around has been writing all my CV's to make then sellable but its not worked.
    • I spent £250 traveling to a job interview that wasn't successful and I didn't get the money back
    • I am poor, broke, 25 and living at home with my parents


    Can someone tell me what is going on? Am I just unlucky? Am I meant to find work?

    Help!
    Two degrees from university? Perhaps you're overqualified for the jobs you're applying to.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Hello,

    the reason I find that I am unlucky is that I am getting interviews. Its just that there is always someone there who beats me.
    With the last Job I was one of two people to be interviewed but I was piped to the post.
    For another one I was one of only three people who made it.

    I am making it to interview but the trouble is I am not the most chatty or good looking of people. Well, I am good looking haha, but I feel that my communication skills let me down.

    Having said that, in the last two jobs they were good and I appeared to have spoken like I knew the employers for years.

    Maybe the trick is to keep applying and hope that I can beat the others.

    I am wondering though what the others have that I do not. In the work I do I have done very well - very very well, but I cannot show these skills to employers until they employ me.

    Is there also a way of showing an employer how good you are without doing work experience. I can tell them loads of times that I am good but I feel they need to see it. If they employed me they would see how good I can be but I don't get to that stage.

    Oh well, I will keep applying. By the way, I live in London and did my degrees in Music. Don't laugh - the field I chose is one in which there is a shortage of people. There is a dedicated website called Musicjobsuk which has all the music jobs on there and there are about 20 a day!

    Yes its a long shot applying to do music and I should be applying to work in other fields - I applied three times for Morrisons...look what happened.

    All the people I see in these shops are lively bubbly people who smile and joke and dance on the table at the office party! I am the quiet one who believes that I am there to work and work is what I will do.
    I can be very bubbly and am very funny (so my friends say) but my current situation is making me depressed and its rubbing off on the interviews!
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Jobcentre should be closed down as it's not helpful at all (at least my branch, more like my adviser). My adviser referred me to a course where we were taught about motivation, how to write CV's, how to search for jobs, how to work in teams etc.. There were some young people with lots of experience already and few graduates, so probably they felt the same like I did. I don't need someone to teach me how to look for a job or how to work in a team because I already know that. What is more ridiculous, recently found really great course but he keeps saying that if it's more than 16 hours a week, I'll lose my benefits which means I won't be eligible for the course. But after calling the course provider, they told me that the course is approved by JCP and I won't lose my JSA. If my adviser will say again what he did before, I'll assume he does not know how to do his job properly.. I'm sure I'd do better in his place than he does at the moment..


    If your dad writes all the CV's for you, it might look for the employers that the CV is not written by you but by someone else, so this shows that you cannot make your own CV and they just reject you straightforwardly.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mikeyup)
    applied for a 3 jobs at Morrisons and was told I was not successful
    Common situation these positions are easier to get if you have family or friends working at the store otherwise they are difficult to get. Even then you have 2 problems:
    1. They view you as over qualified
    2. They can hire a highschool dropout much cheaper than you who would get the full min wage.
    Gave up applying for menial jobs so applied for something more challenging that would require my degree but still got no jobs
    I am going to be harsh as this was a extremely stupid decision on your part. You should be applying for both as you never know you may get lucky with a job (I had an interview at subway recently for example).

    got an interview for a job and would have got the job but at the last minute another position became vacant so the scrapped my position as they needed the other one more importantly
    tough luck. It can happen.


    Signed up to the job centre
    And you did not do this sooner because? The entire point of JSA is to help keep you afloat while job hunting. As soon as you are unemployed you should sign on.

    Am 25 years old and living at home
    24 and in the same boat. There are quite a lot of us. 3/4 years of independence at university only to hit unemployment and result in boomeranging home.
    the job centre put me, a 25 year old with a MA degree on a course full on 17-18 year olds in which we would learn 'key skills' to help you find work. When I spoke to the leader of the course, after completing a 10 page SIMPLE English and maths test (which some failed to get right??), she told me I had a degree and wondered why I was on this course with such high qualifications
    I am quite impressed. My job centre advisor wont even give me the needed referral to a food hygiene course which would at least boost my chances at finding work in catering.

    Yes the Job Centre is not your friend and you should never be fooled into thinking it is. They have targets. They need to get so many people on courses or work programmes that it does not matter if it is horribly unsuitable as long as they reach target. I also recommend you get everything in writing as they have targets to reduce claimant numbers but there are a very small amount of jobs around for people so they will try to trip you up to sanction you.

    applied for voluntary work at Banardos only to be given a 5 page application form, after which I didn't get the job
    Yes some voluntary work does require application forms and there is a chance that you wont get the position at the end of it.
    went with the principal of its who you know not what you know. Found and job and strangely my referee knew the employers personally (family related) but I still didn't get the job. My referee and employer have fallen out of me not getting it!
    Yes connections help. However, use them if you have them but do not just hope that it will come up golden and stop all other job applications


    went to apply for the graduate fast scheme with the civil service but found the maths and English tests too hard for me and failed it
    applied for the general civil service but failed the competency questions
    Grad schemes are not the norm for graduates. They are extremely competitive and very long processes which only a tiny amount of graduates get.

    You need to apply for a range of grad schemes and even then getting a place is extremely difficult

    sent of 20 applications this year, 5 of them got acknowledged
    It is ****ing April... What the hell is wrong with you? 20? Is that ****ing it?

    Since November I have done around 200-500 applications (it is quite hard to keep track considering the range of job websites I use with direct CV applications)
    asked my friends who work in places if there is anything going but 1 said they wouldn't want you to work with them, and the others seemed to have forgotten I asked. I chased them up to which they replied, there is no jobs going.
    Have you failed to notice the economic crisis you have graduated into?

    There are very few jobs going anywhere with some businesses closing down, others are cost cutting, while the public sector is under going major cuts.

    have people always telling me that something will come up. It never has
    You know what might help? Try applying for some ****ing jobs.
    My dad who has a very high up job and is one of the best CV writers/interviewers around has been writing all my CV's to make then sellable but its not worked.
    Perhaps get the CV checked elsewhere or how about writing your own CVs?
    I spent £250 traveling to a job interview that wasn't successful and I didn't get the money back
    You can reclaim travel costs for interviews from the job centre if you did not well tough...
    I am poor, broke, 25 and living at home with my parents
    And I have no ****ing sympathy at this point. Try applying for some ****ing jobs before crying on an internet forum expecting the world just to hand you a job.

    Can someone tell me what is going on? Am I just unlucky? Am I meant to find work?

    Help!
    sigh
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mikeyup)
    ...[*]sent of 20 applications this year, 5 of them got acknowledged
    It’s really, really tough out there. I empathise fully. People have left university and it’s been a real shock that those graduate level jobs have virtually disappeared.

    At the same time, you actually seem remarkably complacent and slow to grasp what you need to do about it.
    To have only sent 20 applications this year is not enough. A lot of unemployed grads are sending off up to 10 a day. For anything, anywhere, in any part of the country. I probably sent around 400 applications before finding paid work, and have continued doing so, which means the interviews and assessment centres are rolling in months after I found a stopgap contact.
    You need a much, much more concerted effort. Relying on your dad, friends, and referees to sort it out for you isn’t the way to get out the quagmire.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    When you said 2 degrees unthought they were some solid degrees which would
    Open up the opportunities to you but you say you did music....WHY??
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Politics Student)
    Common situation these positions are easier to get if you have family or friends working at the store otherwise they are difficult to get. Even then you have 2 problems:
    1. They view you as over qualified
    2. They can hire a highschool dropout much cheaper than you who would get the full min wage.

    I am going to be harsh as this was a extremely stupid decision on your part. You should be applying for both as you never know you may get lucky with a job (I had an interview at subway recently for example).


    tough luck. It can happen.


    And you did not do this sooner because? The entire point of JSA is to help keep you afloat while job hunting. As soon as you are unemployed you should sign on.



    24 and in the same boat. There are quite a lot of us. 3/4 years of independence at university only to hit unemployment and result in boomeranging home.

    I am quite impressed. My job centre advisor wont even give me the needed referral to a food hygiene course which would at least boost my chances at finding work in catering.

    Yes the Job Centre is not your friend and you should never be fooled into thinking it is. They have targets. They need to get so many people on courses or work programmes that it does not matter if it is horribly unsuitable as long as they reach target. I also recommend you get everything in writing as they have targets to reduce claimant numbers but there are a very small amount of jobs around for people so they will try to trip you up to sanction you.
    What's the reason that they don't refer you to that course? Oh yes they are professionals at sanctioning people. Once I got a warning that came at 9 because I was supposed to come at 8.30 even though they only open at 9..
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ForgetMe)
    What's the reason that they don't refer you to that course? Oh yes they are professionals at sanctioning people. Once I got a warning that came at 9 because I was supposed to come at 8.30 even though they only open at 9..
    O they have agreed to, but have constantly failed to do the paper work and then they accused the college of being the hold up. Since then I have been stuck at their agreement, but complete failure for them to do the paper work.

    I think the best one I have had is a warning letter for being 5 minutes late but the desk staff had left me waiting twenty minutes before escorting me through to the advisor waiting area.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Politics Student)
    O they have agreed to, but have constantly failed to do the paper work and then they accused the college of being the hold up. Since then I have been stuck at their agreement, but complete failure for them to do the paper work.

    I think the best one I have had is a warning letter for being 5 minutes late but the desk staff had left me waiting twenty minutes before escorting me through to the advisor waiting area.
    They can get really annoying, they keep telling me that I can't attend one course because it exceeds 16 hours a week so I will lose my JSA.. College told me that JCP made an agreement with that college to carry out those courses and I won't lose my JSA. Logically thinking, to attend those courses you need to be receiving JSA and if I start the course, JCP told me they'll eliminate my JSA, so that means I'm not eligible for the course without JSA. I don't understand why JCP acts like little kids.. What I don't get is why they are so stubborn about me getting into that course.. I had a course before which was in first weeks about 21 hours a week, then 18 hours a week but I still had my JSA all the time..
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mikeyup)
    Hello...

    My name is Michael and I am going to be listing various things in bullet points after which I need some help.

    • I have two degrees from university
    • a wealth of experience
    • odd bits of part-time work that have not paid well
    • applied for a 3 jobs at Morrisons and was told I was not successful
    • Gave up applying for menial jobs so applied for something more challenging that would require my degree but still got no jobs
    • got an interview for a job and would have got the job but at the last minute another position became vacant so the scrapped my position as they needed the other one more importantly
    • signed up to the job centre
    • Am 25 years old and living at home
    • the job centre put me, a 25 year old with a MA degree on a course full on 17-18 year olds in which we would learn 'key skills' to help you find work. When I spoke to the leader of the course, after completing a 10 page SIMPLE English and maths test (which some failed to get right??), she told me I had a degree and wondered why I was on this course with such high qualifications
    • applied for voluntary work at Banardos only to be given a 5 page application form, after which I didn't get the job
    • went with the principal of its who you know not what you know. Found and job and strangely my referee knew the employers personally (family related) but I still didn't get the job. My referee and employer have fallen out of me not getting it!
    • went to apply for the graduate fast scheme with the civil service but found the maths and English tests too hard for me and failed it
    • applied for the general civil service but failed the competency questions
    • sent of 20 applications this year, 5 of them got acknowledged
    • asked my friends who work in places if there is anything going but 1 said they wouldn't want you to work with them, and the others seemed to have forgotten I asked. I chased them up to which they replied, there is no jobs going.
    • have people always telling me that something will come up. It never has
    • My dad who has a very high up job and is one of the best CV writers/interviewers around has been writing all my CV's to make then sellable but its not worked.
    • I spent £250 traveling to a job interview that wasn't successful and I didn't get the money back
    • I am poor, broke, 25 and living at home with my parents


    Can someone tell me what is going on? Am I just unlucky? Am I meant to find work?

    Help!
    become a teacher
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by gijops)
    become a teacher
    I think you'll find that thats pretty competitive too
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Politics Student)
    Common situation these positions are easier to get if you have family or friends working at the store otherwise they are difficult to get. Even then you have 2 problems:
    1. They view you as over qualified
    2. They can hire a highschool dropout much cheaper than you who would get the full min wage.

    I am going to be harsh as this was a extremely stupid decision on your part. You should be applying for both as you never know you may get lucky with a job (I had an interview at subway recently for example).


    tough luck. It can happen.


    And you did not do this sooner because? The entire point of JSA is to help keep you afloat while job hunting. As soon as you are unemployed you should sign on.



    24 and in the same boat. There are quite a lot of us. 3/4 years of independence at university only to hit unemployment and result in boomeranging home.

    I am quite impressed. My job centre advisor wont even give me the needed referral to a food hygiene course which would at least boost my chances at finding work in catering.

    Yes the Job Centre is not your friend and you should never be fooled into thinking it is. They have targets. They need to get so many people on courses or work programmes that it does not matter if it is horribly unsuitable as long as they reach target. I also recommend you get everything in writing as they have targets to reduce claimant numbers but there are a very small amount of jobs around for people so they will try to trip you up to sanction you.


    Yes some voluntary work does require application forms and there is a chance that you wont get the position at the end of it.

    Yes connections help. However, use them if you have them but do not just hope that it will come up golden and stop all other job applications


    Grad schemes are not the norm for graduates. They are extremely competitive and very long processes which only a tiny amount of graduates get.

    You need to apply for a range of grad schemes and even then getting a place is extremely difficult


    It is ****ing April... What the hell is wrong with you? 20? Is that ****ing it?

    Since November I have done around 200-500 applications (it is quite hard to keep track considering the range of job websites I use with direct CV applications)


    Have you failed to notice the economic crisis you have graduated into?

    There are very few jobs going anywhere with some businesses closing down, others are cost cutting, while the public sector is under going major cuts.


    You know what might help? Try applying for some ****ing jobs.

    Perhaps get the CV checked elsewhere or how about writing your own CVs?

    You can reclaim travel costs for interviews from the job centre if you did not well tough...

    And I have no ****ing sympathy at this point. Try applying for some ****ing jobs before crying on an internet forum expecting the world just to hand you a job.



    sigh
    So insightful! Tell me, how's your job going?

    Listen mate it's one thing to give helpful advice, and sometimes a rocket up the jacksie is occasionally appropriate when you know the person and know what you are doing, but *****ing at people like gordon ramsay telling them to 'f***ing*' do more over an internet forum is not going to get you, or them, any further in getting a job. No matter how good it makes you feel being the enlightened voice of unemployed reason for that 3 minute lull between applications it really is not helpful to anybody- no matter how long you have been struggling

    Sorry to be that guy, I really do wish you all the best with the search, but I feel sometimes things need to be said.

    Keep fighting the good fight!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Try going for a casual contract the now that way you have a job and gaining more experience.

    Might not should great but it's better than sitting around while wondering when that dream job appears.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Timbot)
    So insightful! Tell me, how's your job going?

    Listen mate it's one thing to give helpful advice, and sometimes a rocket up the jacksie is occasionally appropriate when you know the person and know what you are doing, but *****ing at people like gordon ramsay telling them to 'f***ing*' do more over an internet forum is not going to get you, or them, any further in getting a job. No matter how good it makes you feel being the enlightened voice of unemployed reason for that 3 minute lull between applications it really is not helpful to anybody- no matter how long you have been struggling

    Sorry to be that guy, I really do wish you all the best with the search, but I feel sometimes things need to be said.

    Keep fighting the good fight!
    I'm with that guy tbh;

    • OP has stated he has a Music degree in a field which has a lack of employees.
    • OP then proceeded to state there is website for music jobs which lists ~20 jobs a day.
    • OP then tell us he has only applied for ~20 jobs in the past 4 months (despite these 20 jobs a day listings).


    Not to be disrespectful but what qualifies your Dad to be one of the best CV writers there is? (However a CV is only meant to get you in the door which by the sounds of it has done.)

    To me it looks like you are not much of a confident person and referring back to the points I stated earlier; lazy.

    As far as I can tell you don't come across well in interviews (and surely your mate has said he wouldn't want to work with you for a reason? Ask him why?... )and I think if your Dad is ****hot at this stuff you need to talk to him about how to properly conduct yourself in an interview.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Are you tailoring your CV to every job you apply for? I imagine it's pretty obvious when someone has done up their CV and then sends it, with no alteration, to all kinds of employers. Your CV should state the kind of work you are looking for. If you're applying for a secretarial job when you really want a job in music technology, for example, you have to lie and say you're looking for a secretarial job. And act like it in the interview.

    What about covering letters? Are you sending out the same generic one? Introduce yourself in the letter and tell them how it is that you have come to apply for the job. Then copy and paste the person specification provided into your covering letter and expand on every point.

    Just read the bit where you say that you're getting interviews. That must mean that your CV and covering letters are cutting it in some cases. Time to be honest with yourself - it's you. And you've identified that.

    Have you visited recruitment agencies?

    Have you had a long hard look at your skill set and identified areas that could be improved? You might find that you'd benefit from an IT course, for example. And if there's a cost and you can't afford it, perhaps have a word with your father and present the course to him as an investment. You'll pay him back at a later date.

    To be honest it sounds like you haven't applied for many jobs. Employers want resilience and tenacity. Your despondency because you got rejected from three jobs at Morrison's doesn't demonstrate these traits, and besides, how does having a Master's degree make you a superior shelf-stacker or cashier to someone without these qualifications? The attitudes some graduates have - they may as well just turn up to job interviews in their academic gown and mortar board, just so, y'know, everyone knows that they have a degree.

    Politics Student is too aggressive but makes some good points. Take those on board too. They might be hard to swallow but will benefit you and your outlook.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources

    Articles and guides:

    Hands typing

    Degrees without fees

    Discover more about degree-level apprenticeships.

    A-Z of careers Advice on choosing a careerCV writing helpCovering letter helpInterview tips

    Featured recruiter profiles:

    CGI logo

    CGI is open for applications

    "Offering a range of apprentice and sponsored degree positions."

    Deutsche Bank logo

    Deutsche Bank is recruiting

    "Thrive in an international banking environment"

    ICAEW logo

    Merck

    "Merck is a global leader in specialized pharma & chemicals – join us!"

    Army logo

    The Army is recruiting now

    "With hundreds of roles available, there’s more than one way to be the best."

    Bianca Miller, runner-up on The Apprentice

    Handle your digital footprint

    What would an employer find out about you on Google? Find out how to take control.

    Quick links:

    Unanswered career sector and employment threads

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.