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    Or, in some countries, it really is


    And what is your opinion about "American democracy"?

    My opinion: Democracy is a tool of political business

    Thank you for your response
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    What does that even mean, "is a myth"? What is "political business"? Are they more of those Chomskyite empty slogans thrown around by people who want to be provocative and edgy but lack the proper intelligence to frame the argument in an honest way?
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    I'm either really stupid or I have no idea what you mean.
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    I don't think democracy is a 'myth'. However, neither do I think it exists in the world at the minute.

    In the same way that we have never seen 'true' Communism in practice, I don't believe we have seen 'true' Democracy in practice.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    What does that even mean, "is a myth"? What is "political business"? Are they more of those Chomskyite empty slogans thrown around by people who want to be provocative and edgy but lack the proper intelligence to frame the argument in an honest way?
    So do you think Democracy really works?

    My anti-american words provokes you?

    Political business - metaphor
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    There is just one fundamental flaw regarding democracy:
    PEOPLE.
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    Humans have always try to unite mankind through the use of democracy - which is an actual fact a label; a categorisation. Our societies have relied on political, social, psychological and cultural labels for a long time....life is based on story telling, and therefore descriptive terminology.

    Isn't a label or a categorisation a form of segregation? Hmmm.... What is the opposite of Unity?

    I'm pretty sure that Irony is the meaning of life.
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    (Original post by DaniilKaya)
    So do you think Democracy really works?
    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that you were going to stick to your original question, which was "is democracy a myth?" There is a huge difference between "is democracy a myth?" and "does democracy work?"
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    I think a true Democracy(as mentioned already) has never been seen.

    People are to innately stupid to allow it to.
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    Oh, I'm sorry, I thought that you were going to stick to your original question, which was "is democracy a myth?" There is a huge difference between "is democracy a myth?" and "does democracy work?"
    What difference?
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    No I don't think its a myth. I think even in America there is democracy, its just diluted by the extreme amounts of money that campaigns require
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    Democracy is just the right of a citizen or citizens to vote. Who or what they vote for is a different matter.
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    (Original post by Gallifreyan95)
    I don't think democracy is a 'myth'. However, neither do I think it exists in the world at the minute.

    In the same way that we have never seen 'true' Communism in practice, I don't believe we have seen 'true' Democracy in practice.
    A pure democracy could potentially be highly dangerous and destructive. It is essentially mob rule, whereby the individual or the minority would be completely subject to the whims of the collective. They could very easily see their rights trampled over and voted away under that favourite collectivist mantra, "for the greater good of the greatest number".
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    I think Churchill once said, "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter" - though that's beside the question of 'Does democracy exist?', rather than on the merits of it as a political system.

    Democracy in its purest form is nowhere near in existence almost anywhere in the world. The closest country we have to it at the moment is Switzerland, and this is achievable owing to its small population and thus less dissatisfied voters. The current system we have in the 'West' is closest to plutocracy. As Keynes once said, "In the long run we are all dead". As a consequence voters, politicians, and those with the money to corrupt them will always win out as short term gains trump those of ideological or long-run objectives.

    Take for instance the left-wing politicians such as Dianne Abott who send their kids to private school. No matter how strongly people believe or want something, it does not override their inherent nature for selfishness.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I think a true Democracy(as mentioned already) has never been seen.

    People are to innately stupid to allow it to.
    :ditto:

    Capitalism and democracy don't make good bedfellows. Votes and outcomes are bought more often than we would like to believe.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    I think a true Democracy(as mentioned already) has never been seen.

    People are to innately stupid to allow it to.
    Not true. Democracy was seen during the french revolution when the french guillotined the aristocracy during the revolution. Democracy was funtioning when the majority Hutus killed Tutsis in rwanda and on the streets of egypt when a mob of people lynched two people accused of theft. We saw democracy in action again when during the recent Israeli-Gaza conflict men accused of being collaboraters were dragged through the street behind motorcycles.

    Over the years we have seen lots of examples of true democracy, people just don't recognize it because they have some romantic notion of what democracy is, they believe that if we let the people decide we would have some marevelous liberal utopia. The fact is that pure democracy is nothing more than Mob rule to quote Jefferson "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

    Democracy in its pure form is madness. So it must be balanced out with the rule of law, protection for the rights of minorities, Habeas corpus, Jury trials etc.
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    (Original post by DaniilKaya)
    Or, in some countries, it really is


    And what is your opinion about "American democracy"?

    My opinion: Democracy is a tool of political business

    Thank you for your response
    Pretty much. Charles Stross discovers the Cathedral

    So, here's my hypothesis:

    Institutional survival pressure within organizations — namely political parties — causes them to systematically ignore or repel candidates for political office who are disinclined to support the status quo or who don't conform to the dominant paradigm in the practice of politics.

    The status quo has emerged by consensus between politicians of opposite parties, who have converged on a set of policies that they deem least likely to lose them an election — whether by generating media hostility, corporate/business sector hostility, or by provoking public hostility. In other words, the status quo isn't an explicit ideology, it's the combined set of policies that were historically least likely to rock the boat (for such boat-rocking is evaluated in Bayesian terms — "did this policy get some poor ******* kicked in the nuts at the last election? If so, it's off the table").

    The news cycle is dominated by large media organizations and the interests of the corporate sector. While moral panics serve a useful function in alienating or enraging the public against a representative or party who have become inconveniently uncooperative, for the most part a climate of apathetic disengagement is preferred — why get involved when trustworthy, reassuringly beige nobodies can do a safe job of looking after us?

    The range of choices available at the democratic buffet table have therefore narrowed until they're indistinguishable. ("You can have Chicken Kiev, Chicken Chasseur, or Chicken Korma." "But I'm vegan!") Indeed, we have about as much choice as citizens in any one-party state used to have.

    Protests against the range of choices available have become conflated with protests against the constitutional framework, i.e. dissent has been perceived as subversion/treason.

    Occasionally cultural shifts take place: over decades, they sometimes reach a level of popular consensus that, when not opposed by corporate stakeholders, leads to actual change. Marriage equality is a fundamentally socially conservative issue, but reflects the long-term reduction in prejudice against non-heteronormative groups. Nobody (except moral entrepreneurs attempting to build a platform among various reactionary religious institutions) stands to lose money or status by permitting it, so it gets the nod. Decriminalization of drug use, on the other hand, would be catastrophic for the budget of policing organizations and the prison-industrial complex: it might be popular in some circles, but the people who count the money won't let it pass without a fight.
    it is relatively straightforward for us to distinguish between two kinds of democracy: one kind, in which power genuinely flows upward from what people want, and another kind, in which power flows downward from the beige oligarchy / Martian invaders, is converted into what they're supposed to think, and regurgitated dutifully at the polls.

    Charlie, do you really want a political system in which power genuinely flows upward from what most people want? I have two words for you. The first is the name of a Biblical prophet. The second is "Powell."

    In postwar Europe, there is a codeword for a political persuasion in which power flows upward. The codeword is "populist." Needless to say, no more vile slur can pass the lips of a good Party man. A "beige dictatorship?" Please, man. Don't complain about the dish you ordered.

    But I don't care to frighten you with bugbears. The reality of the 20th century is that populists lose...
 
 
 
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