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Germany and France 'will block David Cameron's plan for a new EU treaty' Watch

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    Looks like the so-called 'heavyweights' of the EU are simplifying the question for UK citizens who think we can influence and change it from the inside: stay IN on the current terms, or get OUT.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...eron-eu-treaty

    Indeed it appears that they are particularly opposed to any treaty changes as they may require a referendum in some member-states to ratify, oh the horror!
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    Looks like the so-called 'heavyweights' of the EU are simplifying the question for UK citizens who think we can influence and change it from the inside: stay IN on the current terms, or get OUT.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...eron-eu-treaty

    Indeed it appears that they are particularly opposed to any treaty changes as they may require a referendum in some member-states to ratify, oh the horror!
    Surprising change of tact from Germany although unsurprising from France who already told us no (as did the Irish).

    Personally i don't see the Eurozone and EU as fit for us to integrate with (political structure needs changing and debt mutualization needs to occur) at the moment but nor do i see any significant advantage in EFTA or being out fully so for now i'll be content if no referendum occurs and we retain the status-quo.
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    Another reason for us to leave.
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    Their right though, there are numerous arguments in that article why. Pandora's box will be opened and other states will want stuff etc, I think President of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy made this point.

    Guido Westerwelle said No renegotiation previously
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    Without democratic legitimacy, to obtain which will require a referendum in every single member-state, this EU project is destined to fail.

    If the Europhiles are going to insist on forcing this federal union through without giving the peoples any say whatsoever, then I for one am looking forward to the extreme violence which will unfold across every single member-state as soon as the citizens finally realize that they have no say whatsoever in their own governance.
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    We should simply get out now. The EU is stacked against us in so many ways.


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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    Their right though, there are numerous arguments in that article why. Pandora's box will be opened and other states will want stuff etc, I think President of the European Council Herman Van Rompuy made this point.

    Guido Westerwelle said No renegotiation previously
    If this means we will leave the EU sooner, then it's a good thing
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    Looks like the so-called 'heavyweights' of the EU are simplifying the question for UK citizens who think we can influence and change it from the inside: stay IN on the current terms, or get OUT.
    They quite simply won't make it a decision like that. France and Germany quite obviously want the UK to continue to be part of the EU, as do the various officials of the Union. They'll go a fair distance to make membership as attractive as possible.

    I'm strongly pro-EU, but even I see that we can't continue to hold back the tide on this issue in the UK, and possibly in other member-states too. The public are very unhappy and, ultimately, this is a democracy - if they choose to exert pressure on politicians, it's very hard to resist.

    Indeed it appears that they are particularly opposed to any treaty changes as they may require a referendum in some member-states to ratify, oh the horror!
    Only in the Irish Republic.
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    Can't really trust the Guardian on matters of David Cameron...especially when it comes to Europe of all things.

    I don't think there is as much opposition in Germany as the Guardian likes to think, and honestly its a non-question until the September election is resolved, we shall see what the new policy is of the victors in the German election before this is answered.
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    (Original post by Will Lucky)
    Can't really trust the Guardian on matters of David Cameron...especially when it comes to Europe of all things.

    I don't think there is as much opposition in Germany as the Guardian likes to think, and honestly its a non-question until the September election is resolved, we shall see what the new policy is of the victors in the German election before this is answered.

    Agreed. There's a healthy respect in Germany for us. After all the EU and the euro were foisted on the Germans.
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    Does there even need to be a treaty change? I find it slightly insane that Cameron wants the UK to be given EVEN MORE special privileges than other EU member states. Especially since he's playing around in international politics to give himself a political advantage due to all the Eurosceptic MPs. Frankly there's a lot of misinformation about the EU and Cameron has stoked the fire of UKIP himself.

    He may be a good politician (and even that is debatable), but he's certainly not a statesman.

    EDIT: Just wanted to add that there should be a referendum, because at least people might get fair and balanced facts, rather than the vitriol from the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun etc.
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    (Original post by Toothfairy123)
    We should simply get out now. The EU is stacked against us in so many ways.


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    Exactly!
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    We all knew it would be blocked, David Cameron knew it would be blocked and he has no intention of changing anything either, he simply did it to make it look like he is tough on Europe.
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    I thought Angela merkel and David Cameron were really good friends and that she was backing him up...... I could be wrong though correct me I'm please
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    (Original post by Sarah-Jane-mee)
    I thought Angela merkel and David Cameron were really good friends and that she was backing him up...... I could be wrong though correct me I'm please
    You're not wrong Sarah Jane. Ignoring to pro federal European bile that the Guardian spills out on a daily basis. The UK is not hated by the other EU members. Infact, especially in Germany there's a healthy respect for us. Mainly because the German population feel that our government is doing exactly what the German government should be doing.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-879434.html

    Infact, by all accounts Camerons recent meeting with Merkel is very cordial and I suspect we'll see some ground given by the EU.

    France is very vocal in being against it, but France is France and at the moment and for some time in the future they'll do what the Germans tell them to do.

    As has been said before, the EU needs the UK in Europe and if it involves making concessions on things like the work time directive, fishery policies etc. It'll happen.

    The only people trying to shout the UK down in Europe are those ones that feel they will benefit from not having us in there.
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    You do realize that the European Council/Commission don't actually care what the population of either Germany or the UK think, right?
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    You do realize that the European Council/Commission don't actually care what the population of either Germany or the UK think, right?
    You always care about people who are financing you.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    You're not wrong Sarah Jane. Ignoring to pro federal European bile that the Guardian spills out on a daily basis. The UK is not hated by the other EU members. Infact, especially in Germany there's a healthy respect for us. Mainly because the German population feel that our government is doing exactly what the German government should be doing.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-879434.html

    Infact, by all accounts Camerons recent meeting with Merkel is very cordial and I suspect we'll see some ground given by the EU.

    France is very vocal in being against it, but France is France and at the moment and for some time in the future they'll do what the Germans tell them to do.

    As has been said before, the EU needs the UK in Europe and if it involves making concessions on things like the work time directive, fishery policies etc. It'll happen.

    The only people trying to shout the UK down in Europe are those ones that feel they will benefit from not having us in there.
    It's all positioning at the moment as neither side knows what the other will compromise with (we aren't getting our list of demands for nothing) and there's also the constitutional matter that if they let the UK try to renegotiate via a treaty, they'd also have to extend the same deal to everybody else and this may have to go to a referendum in other countries (unless they can find a way around like the fiscal union thing).

    France is playing hard because they want the UK rebate on the table (CAP cuts in exchange for the rebate?), Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland will all likely use the opportunity to renegotiate some stuff themselves in the same way that Cameron fighting for a cut gave them an excuse to do so (the Netherlands demanded far bigger cuts than we did) and other European nations will probably join the two groups but not be involved in a major way (Ireland has indicated it would probably back the french side of the argument).

    The important thing to remember is the differing relationships and vested interests, the rich countries will back us but only upto the point where it could affect the Euro-zone (so we can forget employment law) so it's important not to mistake support from the rich north as support for a Euro-skeptic line. Our best chance is for the justice stuff, CAP and CFP.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    It's all positioning at the moment as neither side knows what the other will compromise with (we aren't getting our list of demands for nothing) and there's also the constitutional matter that if they let the UK try to renegotiate via a treaty, they'd also have to extend the same deal to everybody else and this may have to go to a referendum in other countries (unless they can find a way around like the fiscal union thing).

    France is playing hard because they want the UK rebate on the table (CAP cuts in exchange for the rebate?), Germany, Netherlands, Austria and Finland will all likely use the opportunity to renegotiate some stuff themselves in the same way that Cameron fighting for a cut gave them an excuse to do so (the Netherlands demanded far bigger cuts than we did) and other European nations will probably join the two groups but not be involved in a major way (Ireland has indicated it would probably back the french side of the argument).

    The important thing to remember is the differing relationships and vested interests, the rich countries will back us but only upto the point where it could affect the Euro-zone (so we can forget employment law) so it's important not to mistake support from the rich north as support for a Euro-skeptic line. Our best chance is for the justice stuff, CAP and CFP.
    I think that's all that people are after really.
 
 
 
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