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Police Crime Commissioner or 4 or 5 new new policemen? watch

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    Crime Commissioner
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    New Policemen
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    Here's an interesting question. The new Crime Commissioners are on something like £85000 a year. Now for that you could have 4 or 5 new policemen on the streets in your area.

    Which one would you prefer?
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    Nobody wanted PCCs... They came in unnoticed and are already forgotten.
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    If it leads to an improvement over the whole police service I'd rather have the former. I doubt it will, but time will tell. 4-5 extra policemen would probably do very little in the grand scheme of things.
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    (Original post by ApresAlkan)
    Nobody wanted PCCs... They came in unnoticed and are already forgotten.
    Whether people want them or not is immaterial. The government identified a shortcoming in accountability and moved to address it. Governments are not there to respond to public opinion - often they have to shape it and direct it, to change the country and then let the country be persuaded of the value of that change. That's what leadership is about.

    Virtually all under-the-bonnet changes to our country are little noticed by the public. What should hopefully happen, however, is that PCCs become central to their community. A good PCC certainly has plenty of opportunity to do this and build up links in their area. That will be what puts them into the public eye, not central government marketing.
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    The costs of PCCs far exceed simply their £85000 wage, there was also the costs of arranging the election and advertising for it. It is simply an added layer of bureaucracy, the exact opposite of what the police needs at this time. Also surely some with years of experience is the right person to lead the force not someone off the streets who thinks "I'll give it go, how hard can it be?"

    No one asked for them and I hope the next government is brave enough to scrap them on day 1, not just leave them there wasting public money on an unnecessary position.
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    Additional police without a doubt. We managed fine before and will manage fine long after they disappear.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Whether people want them or not is immaterial. The government identified a shortcoming in accountability and moved to address it. Governments are not there to respond to public opinion - often they have to shape it and direct it, to change the country and then let the country be persuaded of the value of that change. That's what leadership is about.

    Virtually all under-the-bonnet changes to our country are little noticed by the public. What should hopefully happen, however, is that PCCs become central to their community. A good PCC certainly has plenty of opportunity to do this and build up links in their area. That will be what puts them into the public eye, not central government marketing.
    A lot of big words and long sentences however not much content.

    The cost of the elections were far beyond a few thousand and into the millions. Why? What did it achieve? In my constituency only 13 people turned up to vote. No one knew who any of the candidates were, or indeed are.

    Not to mention that the biggest farce so far; the fact that it was political was completely a shambles from the beginning. This position should firstly never have been created, but also; in the event that it was it should never have been political.
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    (Original post by uktotalgamer)
    A lot of big words and long sentences however not much content.

    The cost of the elections were far beyond a few thousand and into the millions. Why? What did it achieve? In my constituency only 13 people turned up to vote. No one knew who any of the candidates were, or indeed are.

    Not to mention that the biggest farce so far; the fact that it was political was completely a shambles from the beginning. This position should firstly never have been created, but also; in the event that it was it should never have been political.
    What? Words like "bonnet" and "accountability"? But perhaps something has gone wrong, because you do not seem to have considered, read or digested a single point I made. Nothing which you say here actually in any way counters the argument I made.

    As for your figure, that's just blatently untrue. Assuming you mean parliamentary constituency, rather than a PPC's area (which is enormous), the smallest in the UK is Wirral West with around 55,000 people. Turnout was 15% across England and Wales.

    To your point about people not knowing the candidates: the overwhelming number of Independent candidates elected goes a very, very long way to disproving your entirely anecdotal view on all this. It seems, in fact, that candidates rather than parties matter a great deal.
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    (Original post by S1L3NTPR3Y)
    The costs of PCCs far exceed simply their £85000 wage, there was also the costs of arranging the election and advertising for it. It is simply an added layer of bureaucracy, the exact opposite of what the police needs at this time.
    Bureaucracy implies officialdom. This is, of course, an elected representative, not an official. It doesn't particularly concern me about the police needing it: what I think is certainly the case is that our democracy benefits from it.

    Let's not forget the situation that went before, which was extremely unsatisfactory. Both the Coalition parties had outlined major reform in this area in their manifestos, both promising elections.

    Also surely some with years of experience is the right person to lead the force not someone off the streets who thinks "I'll give it go, how hard can it be?"
    Well, then you can elect one. Several are former police officers.

    But this part of your post seems to represent a severe misunderstanding of what PCCs are and what they've replaced. They are not police officers and are not the heads of their local police force.

    What they replace is Police Authorities. Police authorities comprised of a slight majority of elected councillors from the areas represented, indirectly appointed in such a way as to - in theory - represent the democratic make-up of the area, and then some co-opted members a proportion of which must be magistrates. None of them were police officers.
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    (Original post by uktotalgamer)
    Here's an interesting question. The new Crime Commissioners are on something like £85000 a year. Now for that you could have 4 or 5 new policemen on the streets in your area.

    Which one would you prefer?
    Your argument is just ridiculous!
    Of course we need the Crime Commissioner! If we don't have one, who will be in charge of the overall police force in that area, or are you even more insane then i thought and believe in self regulation o_O. And 5 extra police officers isn't going to make any sort of difference at all.
    If you start going down this route, do we really need a Prime Minister?? I mean for his salary we could have around 5-10 more "sanitation engineers!" in the WHOLE country!
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    I believe the PCC salary is actually £75k and the current starting salary of a new copper is £23k, so you're actually looking at about 3 new police officers.

    My local PCC is an ex-copper with 30 years experience so atleast he knows what he's doing. £75k isn't a vast amount when you think what Thatchers funeral is costing
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    (Original post by L i b)
    What? Words like "bonnet" and "accountability"? But perhaps something has gone wrong, because you do not seem to have considered, read or digested a single point I made. Nothing which you say here actually in any way counters the argument I made.

    As for your figure, that's just blatently untrue. Assuming you mean parliamentary constituency, rather than a PPC's area (which is enormous), the smallest in the UK is Wirral West with around 55,000 people. Turnout was 15% across England and Wales.

    To your point about people not knowing the candidates: the overwhelming number of Independent candidates elected goes a very, very long way to disproving your entirely anecdotal view on all this. It seems, in fact, that candidates rather than parties matter a great deal.
    15%. You make that sound like that's acceptable. All that percentage shows is that no one gave a crap about them at all.

    And the independent candidates is an interesting one, in my area unsurprisingly the labour candidate was chosen... Only those involved with local politics actually knew who she was. They highlighted this on the news. Nobody in newcastle had a clue who she was, and almost all thought that the position was a complete waste of money.

    And to those arguing that its only a few police officers... Over a million was spent on the elections... Could add another 50 coppers onto that. That surely is a lot more than a few crime commissioners.
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    (Original post by uktotalgamer)
    15%. You make that sound like that's acceptable. All that percentage shows is that no one gave a crap about them at all.
    Again, you're rather glossing over the point that it doesn't particularly matter. The public role of PCCs will come about not by central government advertising before the fact, but by them bedding into their roles and becoming a clear point of contact for the community.

    The public may be OK at identifying problems, but they are rarely any good at solving them - and are quite often cynical to the solutions arrived at after considerable thought, expert guidance and consultation. This is a case where the government is quite rightly leading, not following.

    In fact, some of the ignorance surrounding the need for this role can be blamed on the inadequate previous arrangements. Few people on here seem to know what Policing Authorities actually did - which is unsurprising because they did it so badly and so quietly.

    And the independent candidates is an interesting one, in my area unsurprisingly the labour candidate was chosen... Only those involved with local politics actually knew who she was. They highlighted this on the news. Nobody in newcastle had a clue who she was, and almost all thought that the position was a complete waste of money.

    And to those arguing that its only a few police officers... Over a million was spent on the elections... Could add another 50 coppers onto that. That surely is a lot more than a few crime commissioners.
    I completely disagree. It's a rather cheap rhetorical point to ignore the framework and promote the delivery of a public service. A bit like saying "cut NHS managers and employ more nurses" or suggesting cutting MPs salaries to give us more firemen. Actually, weirdly enough no-one seems to care much about firemen: the political obsession seems to be either nurses or police on the beat. In any case, non-frontline staff are utterly essential to how an organisation functions.

    In both cases, it's undermining an essential part of what keeps the public service in question running. The democratic accountability of the police is hugely important, even more so in a time where several communities apparently have a lack of trust in their local police.

    It is hardly revolutionary to say we should have a robust mechanism for holding the police to account in our local areas. In fact, it's vital - particularly given the British "policing by consent" approach. The Police Authorities were not doing that. The electorate couldn't change their make-up, people didn't understand them, they had little direct relationship with community organisations etc. That shouldn't have continued.
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    (Original post by 1on4)
    £75k isn't a vast amount when you think what Thatchers funeral is costing
    Compare to the £75 billion her EU rebate has saved us so far!
 
 
 
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