do grammar schools give students a fair or unfair advantage for places like uni etc.

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Oxford and Cambridge give comprehensive-school students an advantage in the sense that if one applied with a 3 A* A-Level prediction, and someone from a Grammar school applied with the same grades or even slightly better, the preference would be for the comprehensive student because they would likely have done more work off of their own back to get that far in the first place, whereas the grammar school student would have been helped along to a greater extent by their school.

Reply 21

thegaffer91

Original post by TenOfThem

Using the rather narrow definition of "best" that operates in most Grammar SChool areas?

I believe that all students should be given the chance to thrive ... don't you?

It is arguable that teaching the best and the brightest in a mixed class at the pace of the slowest learners in the room is removing the chance for the best to thrive...

Reply 22

ed-

Original post by TenOfThem

Using the rather narrow definition of "best" that operates in most Grammar SChool areas?

I believe that all students should be given the chance to thrive ... don't you?

'Best', meaning the most intellectually gifted.

Of course but throwing everyone in together only brings the best down. It doesn't help anyone. Those who can be need to be pushed
As for the people who aren't particularly intellectually gifted, that is what the 'set' system is for

Reply 23

TenOfThem

Original post by thegaffer91

It is arguable that teaching the best and the brightest in a mixed class at the pace of the slowest learners in the room is removing the chance for the best to thrive...

I am of the view that mixed ability teaching (in most subjects) stop most from thriving

However, I am not sure that streaming by institution is the only or best way to support all (any) students

Reply 24

TenOfThem

Original post by ed-

'~~Best', meaning the most intellectually gifted.~~

Of course but throwing everyone in together only brings the best down. It doesn't help anyone. Those who can be need to be pushed
As for the people who aren't particularly intellectually gifted, that is what the 'set' system is for

I agree

Reply 25

M1011

Original post by TenOfThem

The second would be you missed out the word some

Th third ... and most relevant ... I am surprised at your naivety if you think that Grammar School places are not (on the whole) bought by parents with money ... money to get tutors in particular ... perhaps you went to a Grammar School where this was less common but it is the case in so many Grammar Schools

He didn't miss the word some. His sentence made perfect sense.

I also went to a grammar school where most people were from modest backgrounds. So no, grammar school places are not bought by parents with money, although you could argue that motivated parents are a big advantage.

Reply 26

username56780055

Original post by jay12345man

(I go to a grammar school so i may be biased) i was reading a petition online to abolish grammar schools because it gives students an unfair advantage and causes emotional distress to those who fail the 11+.

But the way I see it is that people who pass the 11+ are more academic and don't have to be held back by going to a comp. Also it allows people who maybe aren't very wealthy to get a good education without splashing out on a private school.

It is unfair in that it means people who haven't peaked intellectually at 11 don't get in, whereas those with rich parents do. Simple

Reply 27

TenOfThem

Original post by M1011

He didn't miss the word some. His sentence made perfect sense.

Of course it made sense but it lacked accuracy as Grammar Schools do not provide all students from a poor background (not even all the intelligent ones) with a better education

I also went to a grammar school where most people were from modest backgrounds. So no, grammar school places are not bought by parents with money, although you could argue that motivated parents are a big advantage.

Motivated parents do indeed, I imagine that my children have both had an advantage based on my motivation

However, there are A LOT of Grammar School places that are bought

Reply 28

Jodie_668

I don't think they are unfair at all! As you say, it allows students who don't have the wealthiest of families to get the education they deserve. Even if they did go to a comp, providing they worked hard enough they could still get into the top universities so it doesn't really make that much of a difference.
I think nowadays, people focus too much on making sure that every student is involved and praised, even if they don't make the mark. If you fail the 11+ or are not allowed to take, then is gives a chance for the child to learn that not everything works to your favour in life!

Reply 29

Birkenhead

People are constantly banging on about the effect of the quality of your school on your education. In reality, I doubt there is as much an impact as people make out. Far more focus should be on the student's capacity for work, natural intelligence and home environment. I had a privileged education (on the back of a 25% scholarship and generous bursary) and there was the odd student who, despite receiving the same great education as me, had a broken and unstable family and performed extremely badly.

Comprehensively educated students with good homes can do well if they're willing to put in a bit more leg-work to compensate for the gap in teaching quality/resources and even, to an extent, their own lacking natural intelligence; if they're hard-working enough, they can achieve as and more highly than grammar students. It's less easy for a grammar-school educated student to work to resolve a poor, maybe even abusive family environment and ultimately far more damaging to their mentality and chances in life generally. Quality of home environment + capacity for work / quality of education.

Reply 30

Chlorophile

Original post by jay12345man

You're also assuming that everyone who is able to get into a grammar school wants to get into a grammar school, which definitely isn't the case. Some people just do better in the more relaxed atmosphere of a comprehensive school. The environment definitely doesn't have to 'hold back' bright students.

Reply 31

jay12345man

Original post by TenOfThem

Using the rather narrow definition of "best" that operates in most Grammar SChool areas?

I believe that all students should be given the chance to thrive ... don't you?

it depends on the ambition and focus of the students. i don't want to go to a school where i learn more about crowd control than my actual subjects.

Reply 32

scrotgrot

I went to a grammar school, befitting my parents' class. It certainly does give an advantage, but by no means is it an instant passport to a Russell Group uni and/or the middle classes.

Private schools do give a genuine advantage. I remember a private school pupil posting recently on here giving advice to someone else, with phenomenally detailed knowledge of his future career path and the various pros and cons of each university department.

As well as stuff like interview practice. We, personally, were given special lessons if we were aiming for Oxbridge. There were about twelve of us.

Reply 33

Plainview

Original post by Tuerin

Comprehensively educated students with good homes can do well if they're willing to put in a bit more leg-work to compensate for the gap in teaching quality/resources and even, to an extent, their own lacking natural intelligence; if they're hard-working enough, they can achieve as and more highly than grammar students. It's less easy for a grammar-school educated student to work to resolve a poor, maybe even abusive family environment and ultimately far more damaging to their mentality and chances in life generally. Quality of home environment + capacity for work / quality of education.

Great points.

Reply 34

TenOfThem

Original post by jay12345man

it depends on the ambition and focus of the students. i don't want to go to a school where i learn more about crowd control than my actual subjects.

As do many students

Do you imagine that everyone who does not go to Grammar School is either disruptive or disinterested

Reply 35

ThatPerson

I think that Grammar schools are fair. Sure the test they use to select is questionable, but the concept is completely fair: free education for those who are academically capable. These people are already meant to be a bit smarter than the average, so of course they will go to better universities (Although everyone who attends a grammar school might not be smarter than average, a larger proportion will be compared to a comprehensive).

Grammar schools are meant to provide a better education for the more academically capable, so you could argue that it segregates students at an early age, but then so does everything else - area, wealth, friendship groups, university's, etc. Why not give smart people an education to match?

Reply 36

SexiestNameEver

No, there are people I know who have got better grades going to a public school than people who go to a grammar school. Just because you go to a grammar school doesn't mean you have a more advantage. Grammar schools push you more than public schools do and public schools have a lower quality of teaching. Any student who can go past the **** we go through at public school and work their way to achieve better than people at a grammar school are obviously at a better advantage. I just think it's so stupid how people who go to private/grammar schools think they're better than others.

Personally my parents cannot afford a public school and I obviously was not raised to be intelligent and work my ass off when I was little so I did not get into a grammar school. But I have learnt to do that and achieve A*'s. There is no one here to "push" me. I think the independence here speaks for itself (note I am not boasting just stating a fact).

This is not to say ALL grammar/private school pupils are like this.

People who can relate to me will get my gist though :smile:

Reply 37

ThatPerson

Original post by TenOfThem

Of course it made sense but it lacked accuracy as Grammar Schools do not provide all students from a poor background (not even all the intelligent ones) with a better education

Motivated parents do indeed, I imagine that my children have both had an advantage based on my motivation

However, there are A LOT of Grammar School places that are bought

Do you have evidence of this? It's a common view so I'm curious.

Reply 38

TenOfThem

Original post by ThatPerson

Do you have evidence of this? It's a common view so I'm curious.

I used to chat on a parent chat room ... the number of Home Counties parents who "buy" grammar school places and are very open about it is scary

Also, I used to teach at a school that was 2nd choice for students "failing" the 11+ in the neighbouring county ... parents who could not believe that their money had not been enough to ensure a place