Freedom of speech or religious hatred? Watch

Poll: Do you have a problem with clips like this
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Yes (13)
34.21%
Rashid
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#21
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#21
(Original post by MALNIASREASINSUN)
If Muslims immigrate to Britain, and they are certainly welcome to do so, they HAVE to accept European values of freedom.

If I go to Iran, Arabia or any other god damn Muslim nation and insult Mohammad, I give all the Muslims their the right to shoot me that second, but don't come to Europe and demand from us complete respect for your religion.


My ancestors did not fight the Vatican, the Church, the Nazis, the monarchy, Communists and all other *******s so that intolerant Muslims can come over here and suppress our golden freedom.
Why am I not allowed to go up to a black guy / white guy / chinese guy and shout: You dirty ****ing ******/gora/chink?

Surely thats a freedom I should be guaranteed by a free state that seperates Church and govt?

There are limits to all freedom. (otherwise you'd have anarchy)

Someone has to decide where that line is. Muslims propose the line is here (or slightly before...)

-Rashid
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El Scotto
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#22
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#22
(Original post by Rashid)
Why am I not allowed to go up to a black guy / white guy / chinese guy and shout: You dirty ****ing ******/gora/chink?

Surely thats a freedom I should be guaranteed by a free state that seperates Church and govt?

There are limits to all freedom. (otherwise you'd have anarchy)

Someone has to decide where that line is. Muslims propose the line is here (or slightly before...)

-Rashid

You're missing a vital point in comparing race with religion.

People aren't born with religion.

You're born a race, you live as a race, you die as a race.
Its something you can't do anything about.

You're not born with religion. Its a matter of choice.

A ridiculous choice, but its still a matter of choice thus very subjective.

People should be able to question or mock any matter of opinion, as thats the basis of debate. Religion and politics should always be questioned, be it through satire, comedy or serious debate.

people however shouldnt have to defend something of which they can't do anything about, such as race, sexuality etc etc.
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Kilgore Trout
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#23
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#23
More ignorance: What does gora mean?
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Scipio
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#24
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#24
(Original post by Kilgore Trout)
More ignorance: What does gora mean?
It just means 'white male' in punjabi (spoken by both Indian Sikh/Hindu Punjabi people, and Pakistani Muslim Punjabi people). It's not an offensive term whatsoever. 'Gori' incidentally, is 'white female'.
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Tzara
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#25
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#25
I love that YAAFM, and I really don't see what's wrong with mocking any religion.
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Rashid
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#26
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#26
(Original post by El Scotto)

You're missing a vital point in comparing race with religion.

People aren't born with religion.

You're born a race, you live as a race, you die as a race.
Its something you can't do anything about.

You're not born with religion. Its a matter of choice.

A ridiculous choice, but its still a matter of choice thus very subjective.

People should be able to question or mock any matter of opinion, as thats the basis of debate. Religion and politics should always be questioned, be it through satire, comedy or serious debate.

people however shouldnt have to defend something of which they can't do anything about, such as race, sexuality etc etc.
You're missing a vital point/person: Michael Jackson

Anyway, I disagree that ridiculing and insulting is the basis of debate :scratch: As far as I knew, the basis of debate was mannered and respective dialogue.

I don't think choice should make a difference; people CHOOSE to remain male/female. Getting a sex change is possible. That doesn't automatically make sexism OK. A woman may want to remain a woman, and be "proud" of being so, but that doesn't make it OK to make sexist remarks.

I think it comes down to two basic principles: freefom and respect. I think respect is more important.

-Rashid
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jellybones
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#27
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#27
Now I'm normally up for a bit of religion mocking, but this just seemed offensive for offensives sake which just isn't funny.
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MALSUN
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#28
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#28
(Original post by Rashid)
Why am I not allowed to go up to a black guy / white guy / chinese guy and shout: You dirty ****ing ******/gora/chink?

Surely thats a freedom I should be guaranteed by a free state that seperates Church and govt?

There are limits to all freedom. (otherwise you'd have anarchy)

Someone has to decide where that line is. Muslims propose the line is here (or slightly before...)

-Rashid

Who the hell are you?

As someone said earlier, religion and race are fundamentally different. It's wrong to degrade someone on the basis of their gender, race or sexuality, but not their religion, because religion is completely a personal choice. Although one can argue that the awful way some parents impose their religion on their children does not make it a completely personal choice for some individuals, religion in the end of the day is not a part of us in the way our gender is.

I am not saying that freedom entails a way of life where Islam, and other religions are continuously and savagely mocked throughout the Western world, but when in it occurs, Muslims have to respect others freedom of speech in the way that they want their religion respected. Lets be honest, provocative incidents towards Islam, such as the Danish cartoons are very rare indeed, and in my view it should stay that way. However, when something like the Danish cartoon does happen, Muslims have to be calm about it.

In my view Muslims cannot demand respect for their religion, because its like the United States asking respect for itself.

How would Muslims across the world feel if the US demanded respect for itself, and to stop accusing George Bush, and burning American flags?
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MALSUN
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#29
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#29
(Original post by jellybones)
Now I'm normally up for a bit of religion mocking, but this just seemed offensive for offensives sake which just isn't funny.
Whats wrong with being offensive for the sake of being offensive. It may be a little distasteful, but isn't all comedy offensive to some people in some way.

Furthermore, that clip about Muslims was not offensive in the sense that it makes one shocked to the core as to how someone could say such xenophobic remarks about Muslims. It was more offensive in a very ignorant, and surely comical way.
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Lord Derfel Cadarn
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#30
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#30
It was just trying to make a point that people should not get so worked up about things. It turned very serious issues into a comical mockery telling people to lighten up bacause everyone has different views.
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Decent_Jam
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#31
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#31
What would the Muslim world do if the core beliefs of their religion were questioned á la 'The Da Vinci Code'?
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Rashid
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#32
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#32
(Original post by MAlnia...something...)

Who the hell are you?
What? What kinda question is that??

Anyway, you can't expect Muslims NOT to get offended, and stay calm. You don't understand Islam, or what it is like for a Muslim. In Islam, the one who insults God or His Prophets(SAW) is to be put to death. We take it VERY seriously.

BTW, you ignored my post, or the point of it. You CAN change your gender, as you can change your religion.

-Rashid
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bcr8iv
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#33
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#33
(Original post by Rashid)
You CAN change your gender, as you can change your religion.-Rashid
OK, that's an extream example but you're still wrong.

From the muslims I know, their seems to be great denial that you do not choose your sexual orientation so maybe that's why you think it's a good example. I'm not sure if you also take this view. Anyway, the point I'm making is that yes, you can change your gender, but if you decide to change your gender, it would be due to being a man trapped in a womens body (or vise vera); that's not a choice, that's something you can't help.

How would you like it if you were in a females body? OK, bad example, I would love i too for a bit but I'm sure the novelty would wear off after a few days in the pool changing rooms!

(Original post by Decent_Jam)
What would the Muslim world do if the core beliefs of their religion were questioned á la 'The Da Vinci Code'?
Governments all around the world would ban the book in a second! Dan Brown would have to go into hiding...and I'm sure he'd be advised not to use the same hiding place as Osama
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robfinlay
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#34
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#34
Religion should be allowed to be mocked. Just like politics or any other thing.
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El Scotto
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#35
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#35
(Original post by Rashid)


Anyway, I disagree that ridiculing and insulting is the basis of debate :scratch: As far as I knew, the basis of debate was mannered and respective dialogue.


I think its wrong for people to not be allowed to criticise institutions thats sole basis is to inflict random morals and judgements upon people.

Thats why i dont understand what the point of a law against religious hatred would acheive.

It would just be protecting the right of prejudice people not to be prejudiced against?

its a totally bizaare concept.

where would the law stop? anyone can register a charity, I could set up a cult tommorow, stating this, this, this and that and even though it would have the same validity as ANY religion, doesnt mean it should not be questioned.
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Rashid
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#36
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#36
bcr8iv, what exactly is a "man trapped in a woman's body"?

It may be an extreme case, but the point is, IT IS POSSIBLE.

And what if you WANT to be a woman? (and you are a woman) It doesn't amke it OK to make sexist insults still...

(Original post by El Scotto)


I think its wrong for people to not be allowed to criticise institutions thats sole basis is to inflict random morals and judgements upon people.

Thats why i dont understand what the point of a law against religious hatred would acheive.

It would just be protecting the right of prejudice people not to be prejudiced against?

its a totally bizaare concept.

where would the law stop? anyone can register a charity, I could set up a cult tommorow, stating this, this, this and that and even though it would have the same validity as ANY religion, doesnt mean it should not be questioned.
The law is meant to protec BELIEVERS, not beliefs. You are free to critisise Islam or whatever, you just can't go up to a Muslim and scream in their face about how wrong they are. And unless you're a coward who would do so to a woman/do so in large groups, you'd probably get roughed up pretty bad too. (same as you would if you did it to a black person)

Muslims find that clip offencive, because it insults the Prophet(SAW), not because it questions their beliefs. I debate iwth my friends all the time, and they question beleifs etc and I'm fine. What they don't do, is insult the Prophets(SAW) because they know that that is a no-go area...

-Rashid
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40550
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#37
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#37
no the difference is screaming direct racial hatred is harrassment. cartoons and internet clips are freedom of speech.

If I was a muslim person, I might be offended by a cartoon. But I'd accept that people can mock whatever prophet they want because of freedom of speech and because no special rules apply to me.
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Rashid
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#38
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#38
(Original post by dddd)
no the difference is screaming direct racial hatred is harrassment. cartoons and internet clips are freedom of speech.

If I was a muslim person, I might be offended by a cartoon. But I'd accept that people can mock whatever prophet they want because of freedom of speech and because no special rules apply to me.
But you are not a Muslim.

Whether there is a law in place or not, Muslims will still be offended. Like I said, in an Islamic state, if one insults God or His Prophets(SAW) they are put to death.

If a Muslim doesn't care about the law...

-Rashid

This can be extended to the Internet.
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toipot2
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#39
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#39
(Original post by Rashid)
Like I said, in an Islamic state, if one insults God or His Prophets(SAW) they are put to death.
You see, to me, that sounds like terrible, unforgivable intolerance, as is the position regarding apostasy.

Do you agree with these concepts rashid? That apostates and those who insult religious figures should be put to death?

If you dont, that means you follow a personalised version of your religion, which is, IMO, the best way to go about religion. I consider myself a christian, but would not agree with many things in the bible. Having such a personalised view makes the whole concept subjective, meaning I can "take it easy" as far as offence goes, my religion being something very, very specific to me, I have no reason to become offended by other peoples views on the matter and/or insults towards Jesus Christ, they're meaningless to me, theyre just words.

In fact, "Take it easy" is probably the best advice i've ever been given and ill always be happy to give it.

But if you do agree, then im afraid we're gonna have to disagree fairly majorly on that point.
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El Scotto
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#40
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#40

if a mere cartoon can threaten or rock the the believers of a religion, they can't have that much faith in it in the first place.
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