Freedom of speech or religious hatred? Watch

Poll: Do you have a problem with clips like this
No (25)
65.79%
Yes (13)
34.21%
toipot2
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#41
Report 12 years ago
#41
(Original post by El Scotto)

if a mere cartoon can threaten or rock the the believers of a religion, they can't have that much faith in it in the first place.
I dont think thats really the point, muslims are apparently just offended by it, just as you might be offended if I said something about your mom
Wouldnt necesarily mean that you stopped believing in your mom though, heh.

But still, it is far too much fuss to make over it.
0
reply
pendragon
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#42
Report 12 years ago
#42
(Original post by Rashid)
What? What kinda question is that??

Anyway, you can't expect Muslims NOT to get offended, and stay calm. You don't understand Islam, or what it is like for a Muslim. In Islam, the one who insults God or His Prophets(SAW) is to be put to death. We take it VERY seriously.

BTW, you ignored my post, or the point of it. You CAN change your gender, as you can change your religion.

-Rashid
You cannot really change your gender, a man can never have babies. A muslim should recognise that a fake penis and plastic surgery does not make a woman into a real man either. You believe that you can change something like that which God has chosen for you?

I am an atheist by the way, but I am just highlighting the fact that you are not being honest in your reasoning when you claim to believe as a muslim that someone can genuinely change their gender.
0
reply
pendragon
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#43
Report 12 years ago
#43
(Original post by Rashid)
Whether there is a law in place or not, Muslims will still be offended. Like I said, in an Islamic state, if one insults God or His Prophets(SAW) they are put to death.
Do you approve of putting people to death for insulting the prophet or do you think that is something wrong with muslim countries?

Can you not see how that sentiment is offensive to our values of free speech and incompatible with our democracy?
0
reply
pendragon
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#44
Report 12 years ago
#44
Of course I should be free to watch that cartoon and the Danish cartoons, they were making a serious point.

British Islamic fundamentalists said in front of camera's after the London Bombings that Sharia law would be 'rammed down the throats' of British non-muslims and Tony Blair if they didnt like it. When asked why they wanted to live in this country if they didnt like its laws they said because eventually it would become an Islamic country, implying this would be achieved through migration, conversion and if necessary force. This is not an assertion, this is fact. Words to these effect were shown by several British muslims who appeared being interviewed by the BBC. Now, Im sure these individuals do not represent the views of the muslim mainstream in this country, but moderate British muslims do not do enough to oppose these kind of people or the bombers, because there is a muslim principle that you must never betray another muslim to non-believers which was acknowledged by a British muslim cleric shortly after the bombings. So dont tell me, or anyone else, that this is an invented 'conspiracy', it may be the genuine belief of only a few radical individuals, but this ideology of a great muslim trans-national state does exist, and it is as much a threat to western liberal democracies as communism was during the Cold War. People can vote for people like Hitler in a democracy, and if the aims of these radicals were to be achieved they would vote for a theocratic state, even the tinniest moves towards this, implied in the proposed legislation of incitement to religious hatred, would imperill our civil liberties and democratic freedoms.

During the protest over the Danish cartoons, some British muslims held up placards saying "those who insult Islam will be beheaded", "death to the opponents of Islam", and some calling for "Jihad". The difference between the cartoonists or the British muslim author of "Satanic Verses" Salman Rushdie (who was given a muslim death sentence or fatwa by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and had to live in hiding for many years in fear of his life) is that they are expressing their thoughts in a peaceful manner, while some muslims in Britain and many more around the world are calling for, threatening, or actually perpetrating violence. How can athiests not be free to say that religion is nonsense, or any western person not be free to say that Islam is unenlightened in its treatmeant of women (a Dutch documentary film-maker was shot dead in the street for expressing this view).

The views of some Christians that I will burn in hell are highly offensive just as are many extremist doctrines of radical Islam. So how can you legislate that if one says or writes anything that can be seen as insulting to a religion in such a way as to incite religious hatred then you should be imprisoned for 7 years? That would truely be the death of freedom of speech, for religions are a particular kind of ideology that compete with other theories to attract followers, they are no different from Marxism or Facism - a system of belief. If you disagree then look at Buddhism it is an athiestic philosophy called a religion, and how can the state claim to judge what is a valid form of Islam and what is not? For there are sects and differences of opinion that do not comport with any strictly deliniated boundries that a government can devise. Are we going to follow the Chinese model and create a British Muslim church that teaches only things we approve of? And anything outside of that we can supress? The government should not adopt such a role. Religion and ideologies like facism and communism are belief systems that people choose to follow, the fact that most people grow up in a mainstream religion is beside the point (I know someone who was raised as a communist in China), it is true they are linked with culture, but they are not the same thing as race or sex which we are born with and cannot really change (though you can try with surgery). So if we can stop people insulting religion, we should have a laws to prevent incitement to political hatred, or incitement to class hatred. We could then convict people of insulting and hating toffs or the working class, or the Tories, the Communists or Liberal Democrats. Should a surviver of the holocaust be imprisoned for inciting hatred against NAZI's? But facism, however misguided and offensive, is a belief system, a world view, in the same way as Marxism, Protestantism or Islam. We are secular democracies in which government should not interfear with matters of conscience, and British muslims must accept that, as it protects their freedoms just as much as ours, if violent threats are made by anyone they are covered by existing legislation.

We should also be free to question whether there is something fundamentally incompatible with Islam as it now exists and liberal free-speaking democracy. I hope very much this proves not to be the case, but why should we have to be silent in expressing our own views about Islam? If we think its treatment of women is evil then we should be allowed to say so. Would we tollerate the religion of the Aztecs to be practiced in Britain? Would we have to respect their human sacrifices? How can we be forced to tollerate and respect the intollerence and lack of respect shown to women, Jews or homosexuals by some muslims? Such views will no doubt insult muslims, and when expressed could be construed as inciting religious hatred under the vague terms of the proposed legislation. But why should we not insult the muslims who hold views that are insulting to us. The cause of religious hatred is religious beliefs themselves, for except among some liberal enlightened theologians of our society, they neccessarily conflict. We live in a society that demands that all citizens accept the basic freedoms of ours, accept our democratic system and obey the rule of law, if some muslims do not wish to do so they should renounce their citizenship and live in a more theocratic and less free society where they will not be obliged to hear or see things they dont like. Why should we live in fear of threats that if we offend muslims we will be bombed or killed by them, or even arrested and imprisoned by our own government? This country is free, and free for all races and religions to be practiced so long as they accept the basic underlying principles of our democracy, civil society and legal system. We are far more tollerent than any muslim country in the world, this is why we are so weak in the face of the attacks of radical Islam, but it is also why we are strong and will ultimately overcome. Long live the Danish people.
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#45
Report 12 years ago
#45
[quote=toipot2]
You see, to me, that sounds like terrible, unforgivable intolerance, as is the position regarding apostasy.

Do you agree with these concepts rashid? That apostates and those who insult religious figures should be put to death?
[/qouote]

Yes, I agree.

I don't think a personal approach can be taken to Islam, because then it would be corrupting Islam. Allah(swt) says in the Qur'an that he has perfected Islam, for us to follow. For me to then attempt to change bits from here and there would be to imply that I know better than God, the omniscient. Thats pure arrogance. Arrogance is what got the Devil to where he is.

(Original post by pendragon)
I am an atheist by the way, but I am just highlighting the fact that you are not being honest in your reasoning when you claim to believe as a muslim that someone can genuinely change their gender.
OK, fair enough, bad example.

(Original post by pendragon)
Do you approve of putting people to death for insulting the prophet or do you think that is something wrong with muslim countries?

Can you not see how that sentiment is offensive to our values of free speech and incompatible with our democracy?
Reply With Quote
Yes, I do agree with those punishments.

And I understand its incompatible with freedom of speech and democracy. I don't see the point you're making though...?

-Rashid
0
reply
The Green Manalishi
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#46
Report 12 years ago
#46
[QUOTE=Rashid]
(Original post by toipot2)
You see, to me, that sounds like terrible, unforgivable intolerance, as is the position regarding apostasy.

Do you agree with these concepts rashid? That apostates and those who insult religious figures should be put to death?
[/qouote]

Yes, I agree.

I don't think a personal approach can be taken to Islam, because then it would be corrupting Islam. Allah(swt) says in the Qur'an that he has perfected Islam, for us to follow. For me to then attempt to change bits from here and there would be to imply that I know better than God, the omniscient. Thats pure arrogance. Arrogance is what got the Devil to where he is.



OK, fair enough, bad example.



Yes, I do agree with those punishments.

And I understand its incompatible with freedom of speech and democracy. I don't see the point you're making though...?

-Rashid

These punishments regarding apostates are not factual Islamic rules (as in, not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an) Rashid and i have had this debate. I personally don't think that apostasy is a capital crime in Islam. Some agree, some don't... It's a point of personal interpretation.

Btw, i am muslim. Happy to also answer any questions if you have any

I generally found the cartoons (haven't seen the clips in this thread) very offensive, although i don't think the response of many of the muslims calling for repeats of the bombings (9/11 and 7/7) to be justified. Protesting is fine, but that is also an insult to innocent civilians who lost their lives in those tragedies (btw i live in Sri Lanka so i have no ties/ relationship to the UK)


I think that freedom is fine, although i'm not a fan of purposely offending people. You have the right, but does that mean you have to exercise it? Having the right does not mean it has to be exercised. I think these issues can be avoided when they're specifically done to cause offence.

Also, we aren't asking anything special, just civil dignity. I know many people who criticise religion, especially Islam, but with a view to learning or educational debate... Not just piss taking. Which is fine, i enjoy the challenge of a good argument/ debate.

EDIT: Before someone says that
0
reply
The Basilisk
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#47
Report 12 years ago
#47
Hi everybody, I haven't the patience to watch the clip but I voted yes anyway.
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#48
Report 12 years ago
#48
(Original post by TGM)

These punishments regarding apostates are not factual Islamic rules (as in, not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an) Rashid and i have had this debate. I personally don't think that apostasy is a capital crime in Islam. Some agree, some don't... It's a point of personal interpretation.
Just because its not in the Qur'an, doesn't make it not "factual". But yes, it is a matter of disagreement among the Ulammah, although the position that apostates should be put to death is the majority opinion. The same applies to the case about insulting the Prophet(SAW). BTW, I think Jamal Badawai even agrees that those who insult the Prophet(SAW) should be killed? Not sure, maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying in that article...

I agree; I wasn't condoning or encouraging more 9/11s or 7/7s. I do however think that the cartoonists, and those directly responsible for publishing them, should be handed over to a recognised Muslim authority to be put to death... (for arguments sake, say Saudi) I know thats not gonna happen though...

-Rashid
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#49
Report 12 years ago
#49
Now who neg repped me for saying that?

If you're gonna neg rep, at least leave a comment :rolleyes:

-Rashid
0
reply
The Green Manalishi
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#50
Report 12 years ago
#50
(Original post by Rashid)
Just because its not in the Qur'an, doesn't make it not "factual". But yes, it is a matter of disagreement among the Ulammah, although the position that apostates should be put to death is the majority opinion. The same applies to the case about insulting the Prophet(SAW). BTW, I think Jamal Badawai even agrees that those who insult the Prophet(SAW) should be killed? Not sure, maybe I misinterpreted what he was saying in that article...

I agree; I wasn't condoning or encouraging more 9/11s or 7/7s. I do however think that the cartoonists, and those directly responsible for publishing them, should be handed over to a recognised Muslim authority to be put to death... (for arguments sake, say Saudi) I know thats not gonna happen though...

-Rashid
I didn't neg you btw :p: I'm honestly not sure! And i don't want to comment on such a potent issue for fear of misleading others
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#51
Report 12 years ago
#51
(Original post by The Green Manalishi)
I didn't neg you btw :p: I'm honestly not sure! And i don't want to comment on such a potent issue for fear of misleading others
lol, I'll take your word for it (nah, I didn't really suspect you...)

And I understand. We'll leave it to the ulammah to debate it out...

But for now, we both solidly agree that the cartoons are VERY offencive to us and the overwhelming majority of Muslims

-Rashid
0
reply
The Green Manalishi
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#52
Report 12 years ago
#52
(Original post by Rashid)

But for now, we both solidly agree that the cartoons are VERY offencive to us and the overwhelming majority of Muslims

-Rashid
I am in definite agreement with that. By the by, i once repped you a few days ago with an incomplete message as my browser went funny :s:
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#53
Report 12 years ago
#53
(Original post by The Green Manalishi)
I am in definite agreement with that. By the by, i once repped you a few days ago with an incomplete message as my browser went funny :s:
Did it begin with something like "Let"?

Jazakallah khayran for the rep anyway akhi

-Rashid
0
reply
pendragon
Badges: 11
Rep:
?
#54
Report 12 years ago
#54
(Original post by Rashid)
I agree; I wasn't condoning or encouraging more 9/11s or 7/7s. I do however think that the cartoonists, and those directly responsible for publishing them, should be handed over to a recognised Muslim authority to be put to death... (for arguments sake, say Saudi) I know thats not gonna happen though...

-Rashid
It was not me who negged you either, but what you have said is disgusting. Hand over European citizens for execution in a foreign country for exercising their freedom of expression in their own country? If you are a European subject you should be sentenced to life imprison for treason, or have your citizenship revoked and be deported.
0
reply
toipot2
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#55
Report 12 years ago
#55
(Original post by pendragon)
It was not me who negged you either, but what you have said is disgusting. Hand over European citizens for execution in a foreign country for exercising their freedom of expression in their own country? If you are a European subject you should be sentenced to life imprison for treason, or have your citizenship revoked and be deported.
Seconded, well, essentially. It certainly is disgusting.
0
reply
Akhoza
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#56
Report 12 years ago
#56
Im not a Muslim but i do think this is offensive and it should be banned. Some ignorant gore should grow up and stop being so retarded.
0
reply
Rashid
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#57
Report 12 years ago
#57
(Original post by pendragon)
It was not me who negged you either, but what you have said is disgusting. Hand over European citizens for execution in a foreign country for exercising their freedom of expression in their own country? If you are a European subject you should be sentenced to life imprison for treason, or have your citizenship revoked and be deported.
lool, what happened to my freedom of speech?

And isn't that what extradition is? The British govt. handed over Gary McKinnon (British citizen) to the US, to be imprisoned for X years, for committing a crime IN BRITAIN.

-Rashid
0
reply
toipot2
Badges: 1
Rep:
?
#58
Report 12 years ago
#58
I support your right to say that, but completely disagree with what you said.

It could be encroaching on incitement to murder

And isn't that what extradition is? The British govt. handed over Gary McKinnon (British citizen) to the US, to be imprisoned for X years, for committing a crime IN BRITAIN.
There is no chance of the death penalty being imposed on Gary McKinnon, also, he deliberately attacked and compromised US electronic equipment.

I remember a recent case of a radical muslim cleric (was it Abu Hamza?) who was prevented from being deported to the US because he may have faced the death penalty there. (I believe this is partly because of an EU ban on extraditions to countries where the death penalty can be handed down). If he is deported after his prison sentence, then there is some sort of legal guarantee on behalf of the US not to use the death penalty.
0
reply
WokSz
Badges: 17
Rep:
?
#59
Report 12 years ago
#59
That was hilarious. I'm not anti-muslim, but what he says his correct. People need to understand that this is Europe - freedom of speech is part of this continent's culture. The french Revolution didn't happen for nothing. They need to understand that the laws here are different to there. If they want to control what people say over there, fine.
0
reply
2026
Badges: 15
Rep:
?
#60
Report 12 years ago
#60
Whether it is offensive is not the point, the point is that it should not be banned.
0
reply
X

Quick Reply

Attached files
Write a reply...
Reply
new posts
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you registered to vote?

Yes! (228)
39.31%
No - but I will (40)
6.9%
No - I don't want to (41)
7.07%
No - I can't vote (<18, not in UK, etc) (271)
46.72%

Watched Threads

View All
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise