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England Would Be forced to Bailout An Independent Scotland? Watch

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-split-UK.html

    Scotland still expects the Bank of England to bail them out if they split from the UK

    Scotland wants the Bank of England to bail it out if there is another financial meltdown – even if the country breaks away from the UK.

    Scottish Nationalists are insisting they want to keep the pound as their currency and retain the Bank of England as the ‘lender of last resort’.

    Do you agree with this?
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    Scotland wouldn't be able to use the pound anyway, no matter what anyone in either Scotland or the rest of the UK thinks. Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU it will be obliged to adopt the euro, and in the current economic climate it's extremely unlikely the other EU members will be willing to let it opt out.
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    (Original post by Arbolus)
    Scotland wouldn't be able to use the pound anyway, no matter what anyone in either Scotland or the rest of the UK thinks. Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU it will be obliged to adopt the euro, and in the current economic climate it's extremely unlikely the other EU members will be willing to let it opt out.

    We could use the £. But it depends if its in a formal, or an informal currency and fiscal union.

    the euro zone crisis has shown you can't have fiscal union without political union though. So I'm still a little confused as to what the SNP is trying to do as it makes no sense. Personally I think most of us are worried about the economy and taking on the euro so the SNP will say anything to get the votes they need in the referendum knowing full well that they won't honour those promises.

    incidentally, can you guys stop talking as if we're not here. You are also aware that support for seperation hasn't really shifted past the 30% mark for thirty years?
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    (Original post by Jamie6747)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-split-UK.html

    Scotland still expects the Bank of England to bail them out if they split from the UK

    Scotland wants the Bank of England to bail it out if there is another financial meltdown – even if the country breaks away from the UK.

    Scottish Nationalists are insisting they want to keep the pound as their currency and retain the Bank of England as the ‘lender of last resort’.

    Do you agree with this?
    If Scotland are willing to have their budgets approved by London and England are happy for collectivized debt (Scottish debt to be issued in GILTS still) then there should not be a problem.

    Whether either side would be happy with that though is the other question.

    (Original post by Arbolus)
    Scotland wouldn't be able to use the pound anyway, no matter what anyone in either Scotland or the rest of the UK thinks. Assuming an independent Scotland joins the EU it will be obliged to adopt the euro, and in the current economic climate it's extremely unlikely the other EU members will be willing to let it opt out.
    There's a good few years you can hold off although as Euro-federalists the SNP will probably jump in fairly quickly.

    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We could use the £. But it depends if its in a formal, or an informal currency and fiscal union.

    the euro zone crisis has shown you can't have fiscal union without political union though. So I'm still a little confused as to what the SNP is trying to do as it makes no sense. Personally I think most of us are worried about the economy and taking on the euro so the SNP will say anything to get the votes they need in the referendum knowing full well that they won't honour those promises.

    incidentally, can you guys stop talking as if we're not here. You are also aware that support for seperation hasn't really shifted past the 30% mark for thirty years?
    Really the SNP would have been far better to demand full on federalism.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    If Scotland are willing to have their budgets approved by London and England are happy for collectivized debt (Scottish debt to be issued in GILTS still) then there should not be a problem.

    Whether either side would be happy with that though is the other question.



    There's a good few years you can hold off although as Euro-federalists the SNP will probably jump in fairly quickly.



    Really the SNP would have been far better to demand full on federalism.
    Couple of problems with Federalism.
    1) Thats not the SNP policy, although ther are quite clear indications that that is what Alex Salmond has been trying to manouvers. Albeit very unsuccessfully. I seriously think that he's scared of next year

    2) Federalism along what line? Scotland, Wales, England and NI? Or break England up into regional assemblies to make it a bit more farer with each federal unit roughly the same size? Either way, you have area's thoughout the UK that will struggle as they're not productive enough and will need financial support but then other federal area's start whinging like the SNP activists that their money is being spent elsewhere.

    3) The SNP need to realise that the federal issue isn't just an issue for 5 million Scots. It's a decision that has to be made by 65 million Britons. I know they'd like to think we're the centre of the universe, but in this case we're not.

    Anyway, you just need to look at federal Germany. The Eastern German area's are still struggling 25 years after unification. The Western parts raise more revenue, can reinvest and outperform them.

    I do believe in devolution, but not when it comes to issues relating to tax. I think we have an ideal situation up here where we have a local government that is closer to the people who can make better judgements about how and where the budget is spent. I wopuld just like to see a similar set up with English regional assemblies so as ensure a degree of equality across the board for the whole of the population of the UK. But I know that that's going to be very expensive to implement and the returns on the investment are negligable.

    Incidentllay. You guys are aware that support for seperation has been around the 30% mark for the last 30 years. Interestingly enough, it seems to be at the same level as the poll on the 'Should London be Independent?' thread. Leading me to believe about a third of the population can't think long term and just think about what the taxpayer can give them for free in their own narroe inded outlook.

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    When we hit times of economic downturn, people always start looking elsewhere for solutions and they normally get drawn to the greatest orator. Hopefully as the economy is now getting back to normal the population will start getting back to normal and carrying on with their lives instead of thinking about dangerous, irreversible policies that are more than likely to fail as they're driven by emotional wants, other than realistc needs.


    You're calling the SNP a Euro Federalist party. It wasn't too long ago that they were Anti Nato, Anti EU. Then they became pro EU, pro Euro. Don't be suprised if in the event of a more than certain no vote the SNP start splitting an in fighting amongst themselves. They've done too many huge U turns on quite significant policy over the past few years. They still haven't grasped, like many parties that the Eurocris has changed the political landscape of Europe and it's effects will be felt for some time
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    Indeed, they'd have been far better saying that not all 45% of the voters who followed them want to leave but that this should viewed as a mandate to seek more Scottish power and taken that to London.

    For the SNP i know that they often ally with Plaid and Northern Ireland has a greater degree of separation anyway so i think they;d call simply for that. When it comes to the English regions i'm often undecided on whether to go by political boundaries (broadly you split England into three), regional boundaries (vary quite a bit in population) or whether to simply take the counties containing the most prosperous cities (the core 8) and give them the equivalent of the greater London assembly.

    True, Scotland's not quite the basket case that many people make out though.

    I think that things like transport and energy should be local but education, health and justice should largely be central except when privately owned obviously. I think that current authorities are generally far too local, not only are there many cases of incompetence but in many areas NIMBY's are allowed to dictate development (i believe people should have their views heard but the more local you are, the more power the NIMBY has). That's probably true, in general i believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

    As a Euro-skeptic i find that attitude most refreshing, when applied to Europe some people make it sound like Farage is the second coming.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Indeed, they'd have been far better saying that not all 45% of the voters who followed them want to leave but that this should viewed as a mandate to seek more Scottish power and taken that to London.

    For the SNP i know that they often ally with Plaid and Northern Ireland has a greater degree of separation anyway so i think they;d call simply for that. When it comes to the English regions i'm often undecided on whether to go by political boundaries (broadly you split England into three), regional boundaries (vary quite a bit in population) or whether to simply take the counties containing the most prosperous cities (the core 8) and give them the equivalent of the greater London assembly.

    True, Scotland's not quite the basket case that many people make out though.

    I think that things like transport and energy should be local but education, health and justice should largely be central except when privately owned obviously. I think that current authorities are generally far too local, not only are there many cases of incompetence but in many areas NIMBY's are allowed to dictate development (i believe people should have their views heard but the more local you are, the more power the NIMBY has). That's probably true, in general i believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

    As a Euro-skeptic i find that attitude most refreshing, when applied to Europe some people make it sound like Farage is the second coming.
    You've made some good points.

    I think that Plaid are the ones who are looking bad in this one as Wales really suffers. The SNP argument is that they've been subsiding London. (read the English) Actually London, the South East have been subsiding the rest of the UK with Scotland just about breaking even. So Wales, Northern Ireland and the North of England are the ones that loose out through a federal system hence my complete confusion with Plaid as it weakens the people it claims to represent. The only option that it can be is that it follows my theory that all politicians are self serving, so there's a push by Sinn Fean, Plaid, SNP and the English Democrats for things like a federal set up just to gain themselves more power. If you know you're not going to be a King, why not try and become Lord of the Manner instead.

    I would disagree with the central control though. I agree that strategy and targets should be centrally controlled. But the delivery of those targets and strategy should be nearer the area's that are impacted. It's not a new concept. It's a bit like a General fighting a battle from 50 miles behind the front. You need to be closer to the action to make sure yo're responsive enough.

    The NIMBY issue is a concern, but as can be seen up here, the SNP in Holyrood have introduced a centralised style of government and have clamped down on dissent from it's party members so they can get stuff done. After all, how do you explain the general populations complaints about Wind Turbines going up being ignored so regularly.

    Holyrood already has significant powers that the SNP have chosen not to use. And the new Scotland bill comes into existent shortly giving us even more powers.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    You'v emade soe good points.

    I think that Plaid are the ones who are looking bad in this one as Wales really suffers. The SNP argument is that they've been subsiding London. (read the English) Actually London, the South East have been subsiding the rest of the UK with Scotland just about breaking even. So Wales, Northern Ireland and the North of England are the ones that loose out through a federal system hence my complete confusion with Plaid as it weakens the people it claims to represent. The only option that it can be is that it follows my theory that all politicians are self serving, so there's a push by Sinn Fean, Plaid, SNP and the English Democrats for things like a federal set up just to gain themselves more power. If you know you're not going to be a King, why not try and become Lord of the Manner instead.

    I would disagree with the central control though. I agree that strategy and targets should be centrally controlled. But the delivery of those targets and strategy should be nearer the area's that are impacted. It's not a new concept. It's a bit like a General fighting a battle from 50 miles behind the front. You need to be closer to the action to make sure yo're responsive enough.

    The NIMBY issue is a concern, but as can be seen up here, the SNP in Holyrood have introduced a centralised style of government and have clamped down on dissent from it's party members so they can get stuff done. After all, how do you explain the general populations complaints about Wind Turbines going up being ignored so regularly.

    Holyrood already has significant powers that the SNP have chosen not to use. And the new Scotland bill comes into existent shortly giving us even more powers.
    Plaid like many left parties want equality, so long as they can achieve that then they are happy for everybody to be equally poor together. Very true.

    I get very wary about giving schools too much power themselves, whilst it works for some many will choose the subjects with the highest pass rates (ask yourself how many schools have GCSE Economics). Fair point, i guess i just split issues into two groups of central and local.

    Yes, bar Trump i've never heard of objection which i thought was pretty strange. Word is that Iceland could soon export their energy to Scotland to be redistributed to Europe as well.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Plaid like many left parties want equality, so long as they can achieve that then they are happy for everybody to be equally poor together. Very true.

    I get very wary about giving schools too much power themselves, whilst it works for some many will choose the subjects with the highest pass rates (ask yourself how many schools have GCSE Economics). Fair point, i guess i just split issues into two groups of central and local.

    Yes, bar Trump i've never heard of objection which i thought was pretty strange. Word is that Iceland could soon export their energy to Scotland to be redistributed to Europe as well.
    I missed the Iceland Article. But here's two competing arguments.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/wo...anted=all&_r=0

    http://www.icenews.is/2013/03/01/ice...-export-plans/

    Some may argue that Greenland may be a better customer as it's a bit nearer I suppose and they're still burning fossil fuels for 100% of energy production. That's always been a problem though. Overcoming problems to get your product to market.
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    No way. Salmond can't have it both ways.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    No way. Salmond can't have it both ways.

    I think he understands that. That's why he's trying to stir up as much division and resentment as he can..

    Nationalism thrives on portraying yourself as a victim. You just need to have a look at the Scottish Seperation Thread to see that. If the Nationalists are to be believed.
    1) We're ruled by the English. Not true. Everybody has an equal say in how the UK is governed.
    2) We're unable to make our own decisions. Untrue. We have as much ability, if not more with Holyrood to make decisions.

    The sad thing is we have an increasingly sized younger generation, who with the advent of free university Education never leave Scotland and interact with other people, who seem to believe that were somehow oppressed.

    I think the EuroZone crisis has seen you can't have fiscal union without political union. Yet the SNP are trying to fight against that. And the only reason why they're fighting against it is because they've had to do a U turn on policy as they always wanted to join the Euro but the electorate are dead against it now. And it's as yo usay, your average SNP supporter (I say Supporter as they are the hardcore, as a lot of people who voted for the SNP don't believe in their policies but felt that Labour had let them down so it was in affect a protest vote.) doesn't understand that unlike the referendum vote, issues such as the BoE have to involve people outside of Scotland.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    We could use the £. But it depends if its in a formal, or an informal currency and fiscal union.

    the euro zone crisis has shown you can't have fiscal union without political union though. So I'm still a little confused as to what the SNP is trying to do as it makes no sense. Personally I think most of us are worried about the economy and taking on the euro so the SNP will say anything to get the votes they need in the referendum knowing full well that they won't honour those promises.

    incidentally, can you guys stop talking as if we're not here. You are also aware that support for seperation hasn't really shifted past the 30% mark for thirty years?
    My apologies. I was and am speaking hypothetically.

    Yes, Scots would perhaps be able to continue to informally use the pound if there was no official currency union, but then the SNP government would have no control whatsoever over monetary policy. The only countries which do currently have such an informal union are those for which control doesn't matter - they're either insignificant like Liechtenstein and Timor-Leste or they're failed states like Zimbabwe.

    And like I said, if Scotland were independent it wouldn't get an opt-out like the UK already has. The eurozone could do with an extra reasonably strong economy right now to help stabilise it, and the euro countries wouldn't willingly give up the chance of including Scotland.

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    There's a good few years you can hold off although as Euro-federalists the SNP will probably jump in fairly quickly.
    Then it would be a good few years of the Scottish government having zero control over monetary policy - something which is in nobody's interest.
 
 
 
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