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Post-2000s Draft; Round 1 - Kenan and Kel vs VQG Watch

  • View Poll Results: Who do you think would win?
    Kenan and Kel's team
    53.33%
    VQG's team
    46.67%

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    Hello, welcome to the Post-2000s Draft Game. This is the third Draft Game organized on TSR (to my knowledge, anyway) but for anyone who wasn't around last time or doesn't know how things work: basically, sixteen members have spent the last couple of weeks picking players to make a team (you can see how they did it in this thread), and they are now ready to go head-to-head against each other to win your vote - which do you think is the better team? The voter has both the squad-sheet and the tactics to consider!

    The key rule for this edition of the game is that players have to have made their debuts in or after 2000, and they have to have spent most of their careers in one of the English Premier League, La Liga, Serie A or the Bundesliga (apart from one wild-card pick).

    Additionally, voters are requested to please justify the votes you cast: an explanation of why you voted for the team you did would be much appreciated and would add to the game and the forum as a whole.

    The poll closes in two days.

    First Round Game

    Kenan and Kel vs VQG

    Kenan and Kel's team and tactics



    I'll start with my defence, seeing as it is the strongest part of my team. I have the best defence in the draft, with the best defender in the draft leading it; Nemanja Vidic. I also have the best defensive full back in the draft in Eric Abidal. These two along with a German (Badstuber) and and Italian (Maggio) makes my defence pretty frikking solid. VQG's team is great going forward, but how much will it really trouble my defence? Vidic and Badstuber will easily deal with Higuain, Abidal can neutralise Ribery while Maggio can keep up with Aguero. Lloris is extremely fast off the line so while Fabregas may feed balls over the top, Lloris will get there before any of VQG's attackers can even think about getting a touch.

    Fabregas is the heart of VQG's team, so I'll be asking Arturo Vidal to keep an extra eye on him. Sahin and Silva are good enough to control the game while Vidal can help out too when we're going forward.

    Sahin and Silva will spread the play to the wings whenever the opportunity presents itself, Sanchez and Joaquin can torture VQG's full backs, while providing a service to the big man up front. For all doubters of Joaquin, while he was at Real Betis, he was one guy that the awesome Real Madrid team of the early-mid 2000's really feared, and it was obvious why he was so feared every time he played.

    Now, the big guy up front. Please, please, please remember that the players must be judged at their peak, and Adriano's peak during the early-mid 2000s was up there with the best of strikers. He could do it all as a striker, literally every skill a striker can possess, and I'll back him to toy with VQG's defence all day long. Agger and Bonucci will be scared ****less.

    Player Bios:
    Spoiler:
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    Hugo Lloris
    - Hugo Lloris is just an all-round top keeper. What impresses me most about Lloris though is his speed off the line, when in one on one situations. There are a lot of fast forwards in the draft and if the ball is played over the top, I'd back Lloris to get there first more times than not. Loads of individual honours including a three time Ligue 1 Goalkeeper of the Year.

    Christian Maggio
    - Usually I prefer defensive full backs, but I made an exception for Maggio. Christian Maggio is just a very good footballer, full stop. Playing at right back allows him to do his duties well and do something special when the team is looking for some inspiration, be if a pass, a shot or a dribble.

    Nemanja Vidic
    - Best defender available, probably the best current United player available. At his peak, the best in the world. Tackler, header-er, passer, goal-scorer, warrior, leader. Two time Barclays Player of the Year, among other individual accolades.

    Holger Badstuber - Tell me this player isn't class. That's right, you can't, because he is class. A well-rounded centre-back who excels at all the skills needed in his position. All possesses decent pace for a centre-back.

    Eric Abidal
    - The best defensive left back available in the draft. Played pretty much all through the 2000's and shows his class every time he plays. Can do it all as a defender, tackle, head, he's strong, great one on one too as he's blessed with good speed.

    Arturo Vidal - Best defensive midfielder, (pause), in the world, at this very moment at least. Very versatile for a player in his position, I admire his style of play. His comfort with the ball and passing ability makes his a crucial player for my team.

    Nuri Sahin - The Turkish Cesc Fabregas. His passing ability, both short and long is absolutely excellent, and this is why he'll be able to help control the game in midfield. Was rewarded with the German Player of the Season award for 2010-11.

    David Silva - Versatile little player right here, very smart. His control, passing and ability to drift with the ball makes him an extremely valuable player. His best asset however is his possession-keeping; something every team needs, will bring control to my team's attacks. 27 years old and already has 70 caps with one of the greatest International teams ever.

    Alexis Sanchez - Pace. PACE. PACEEEEEE. This guy is pretty quick to be fair, but that just distracts you from his other talents. The guy can create and score chances as much or more than most wingers. His passing may be under-appreciated here.

    Joaquin - More Pace. This guy used to be a nightmare for La Liga's top teams in the mid 2000's; one of the players that was universally feared. He could do it all as a winger; dribbling and crossing was especially brilliant. Rewarded with a ton of Spain caps.

    Adriano – Please, please, please remember the Adriano of the early and mid 2000s, where he was dubbed as the next Ronaldo, because he was doing stuff only Ronaldo and a few others could do. At his peak, he was a complete striker, complete. You name it, he has it. Head? Yes. Shoot? Yes. Dribble? Yes. Out-muscle? Yes. Trickery? Yes. Brazilian? Yes. Pass? Perhaps.



    VQG's team and tactics



    Central Defenders: Bonucci and Agger are two of the best ball playing defenders around. Both of them are extremely comfortable with the ball at their feet so will be key in helping retain possession and starting attacks.

    Full backs: Iraola will need to push up from the right hand side (a role he's excellent at as he played as a wing back last season for Bilbao) which will drag Abidal out wide creating space for Aguero to tuck in and attack the center backs. Fletcher's energy and stamina will be key here to help cover for Iraola at times when we're pumping forward. On the other side Enrique will be a lot more cautious but will provide sufficient support for Ribery so he doesn't get double teamed, and to allow him to have a go at his full back and the midfield.

    Midfielders: I've got 3 central midfielders in my team. All of them are comfortable with the defensive side of the game, and Fabregas and Moutinho are excellent passers and creators. Fletcher's going to be the ball winner in the team, and he'll press other midfielders into making mistakes. Fabregas' vision and passing range will prevent us from ever getting trapped in our own half as he can pick out any of the forwards from deep within his own half. Aguero and Ribery's pace and movement will also be key here. It'll also ensure that we dominate possession.

    Attack: Higuain's playing the traditional number 9 role. He'll occupy both centerbacks with his movement in and outside the box. He's a complete striker so whatever kind of chance he gets in the box he'll take it. He won't have much luck in the air against Vidic so drilled crosses, and balls whipped across the 8 yard box will be best to allow both Aguero and Higuain to join in. Aguero will try to tuck in as much as possible creating more space outwide if Abidal follows, or centrally for the likes of Fabregas/Higuain if Abidal doesn't follow him. Ribery will play as a winger. He'll run and attack Maggio as much as possible.

    Key points:
    • K&K's defence is better than mine. No arguements though I believe my attack will cause his defence more problems than his attack against my defence.

    • Silva's his biggest source of creativity but Fletcher was a specialist in these kind of situations. He can take Silva out of the game or at least get him off the ball as much as possible with his pressing.

    • I have Ribery, Fabregas and Moutinho who are all very creative players and have been the biggest source of creativity for their teams for years. Aguero also is no slouch, his movement, pace and dribbling ability will also create/help create chances.

    • I also have a lot more goals in my team. In their best goal scoring seasons - Fabregas (has 19 goals), Ribery (20 goals), Higuain (29 goals) and Aguero (30 goals). Only Adriano has more than 19 goals in a season on K&K's team. Silva (has 10 goals), Adriano (28 goals) and Sanchez (15 goals).
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    Said it above but I'll say it again here. Players to be judged at their peak. Adriano at his peak was SCARY good.
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    I have serious reservations about pretty much the entirity of VQG's defence. Agger is probably the best of the bunch, Bonucci is unproven outside of being in a 3 man central defence. I think both midfields are pretty great, but equal. I think VQG's attack is slightly better, but I think Kenan and Kel's defence is a lot stronger than his counterpart. It'll be much easier for Kenan and Kel's slightly weaker attack to break down VQG's defence than VQG's attack to break down Kenan and Kel's defence. Simply put, the differences in their attacks is noticeable but pales in comparison to the difference between the two defences.

    Kenan and Kel for me.
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    (Original post by Stu Laverty)
    I have serious reservations about pretty much the entirity of VQG's defence. Agger is probably the best of the bunch, Bonucci is unproven outside of being in a 3 man central defence. I think both midfields are pretty great, but equal. I think VQG's attack is slightly better, but I think Kenan and Kel's defence is a lot stronger than his counterpart. It'll be much easier for Kenan and Kel's slightly weaker attack to break down VQG's defence than VQG's attack to break down Kenan and Kel's defence. Simply put, the differences in their attacks is noticeable but pales in comparison to the difference between the two defences.

    Kenan and Kel for me.
    Unfair on my defence tbh. Bonucci played in a back two for Juventus at the start of his career and did well with Chiellini. It's just that Juventus were poor overall as they finished 7th. He also played in a back two for a lot of Italy's campaign with Barazagli and they didn't too bad until of course they came across Spain.

    Iraola is a better defender than Maggio. Maggio couldn't get into the Italy team during the Euro's because of the way Arshavin and Zhirkov tore him apart in Italy's 3-0 defeat to Russia just before the Euros. Ribery's on a completely different level to Arshavin and will gave a torrid time - more so than any of my full backs against his wingers.

    Vidic is a lot better than my two defenders but Agger's better than Badstuber, and Bonucci is on the same level.

    Edit: Wrong about Maggio not playing for Italy. He started in the group stages but was dropped after. Didn't start in the knockouts.
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    I don't think VQG's defence is actually as bad as everyone is making out. Vidic and Abidal at their best are cracking defenders, but Maggio and Badstuber and no better than Iraola and Agger at their best. Yeah Kenan and Kel's defence is better, but still...

    Although I've never been sure about Higuain, with those supply lines I can see him scoring goals... mehhh this is a really tough one. I won't vote now, need time to think... it's a really tough one... so close!
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    (Original post by VQG)
    Unfair on my defence tbh. Bonucci played in a back two for Juventus at the start of his career and did well with Chiellini. It's just that Juventus were poor overall as they finished 7th. He also played in a back two for a lot of Italy's campaign with Barazagli and they didn't too bad until of course they came across Spain.
    Bonucci has been incredibly average for the majority of his career until a superb season in between Barzagli and Chiellini. He wasn't anything special (although not bad) at Euro 2012 outside of an excellent performance against Spain in the opening match, a match that Italy played a 3-5-2 formation.

    Maggio didn't play in Euro 2012 much because he, like Bonucci, is better as a wingback rather than in a flat back four. But the difference in quality between Agger and Badstuber (your best, his worst, arguably) is quite minimal in comparison to the difference between his best and your best and Badstuber is certainly better than Bonucci in a back four. So even though I agree Agger is better than Badstuber, it doesn't change my stance that his defence is a lot better and that it is greater than the differences in attack.
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    (Original post by Stu Laverty)
    Bonucci has been incredibly average for the majority of his career until a superb season in between Barzagli and Chiellini. He wasn't anything special (although not bad) at Euro 2012 outside of an excellent performance against Spain in the opening match, a match that Italy played a 3-5-2 formation.

    Maggio didn't play in Euro 2012 much because he, like Bonucci, is better as a wingback rather than in a flat back four. But the difference in quality between Agger and Badstuber (your best, his worst, arguably) is quite minimal in comparison to the difference between his best and your best and Badstuber is certainly better than Bonucci in a back four. So even though I agree Agger is better than Badstuber, it doesn't change my stance that his defence is a lot better and that it is greater than the differences in attack.
    Bonucci has only had 1 season in top flight in a back two (for Juve at least - I don't know about his time before Juve). It's hard to judge because he's only 25 but playing in a back 3 isn't that different. Most defensive midfielders almost play like a third center back IMO.

    The reason K&K's defence is better than mine is because he's got the two best players available in their positions. That doesn't make my defence weak - especially coming across Adriano who hasn't scored more than 20 league goals in a season. That's putting too much hope on Adriano.

    Alexis/Silva or Joaquin aren't going to cause many/if any problems to my center backs. They're better at attacking full backs - if it comes down to that Ribery's the best player in the match for that.

    Plus my attack is a lot better - not slightly better as you said earlier. It's not particularly close IMO.

    Higuain was better than Adriano even at his peak. Adriano managed 27 goals in 48 games for a ridiculously strong Brazil team in the mid-00s. Higuain has 19 goals in 32 games for this current Argentina team.

    Sanchez or Joaquin shouldn't be compared to Ribery as wingers. Ribery's simply a lot better than them - more goals in him and more creative. He's the chief chance creator in this Bayern team. Aguero is also a much better player than them and obviously a better goal scorer.

    Fabregas is also better than Silva. As shown by their club careers Fabregas scores more goals than Silva and they generally have the same number of assists (even that is slightly in Fabregas' favour). But the main that seperates them in the role that we're playing them in is that Fabregas can take over a game and run the game. He's a true playmaker and he'll control midfield and help out a lot more than Silva as he's a lot more natural in that role.

    He's also more capable defensively as he will definitely drop back. He's played in a midfield two at the start of his Arsenal career. Moutinho is also better defensively than Sahin - who won't press and work as much. So my individual defensive deficiencies can be made up by my whole unit.

    I think I'll control this game with Fabregas and Moutinho so his defence will be under a lot more pressure - and I think my attack is too good and has too many options to eventually not score. If I take Silva out of the game it becomes a lot more difficult for K&K, which isn't the case if you take Fabregas out.
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    While I agree that Fabregas is better than Silva, I do think that Sahin (And Vidal) will help Silva control the game, more-so than VQG's midfield.

    Aguero and Ribery are overall better going forward than Sanchez and Joaquin, I do believe my wingers will track back better. Aguero is playing out of position really.

    Statistically, Higuain may have the edge over Adriano, but at their peak, Adriano was capable of doing stuff most footballer can't even dream about. Higuain's best goal return has come for a ridiculously strong Real Madrid team in a league dominated by two teams whereas Adriano's best was for an Inter Milan side that finished third, in a league not known for high-scoring games.

    But the fact of the matter is my defence is excellent. VQG's attack is great but my defence is just better.
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    This is a hard match to call.

    I definitely think VQG's defence is his weakest part of his team, and that K&K's defence is superior even if he is slightly overstating how good they all are. Vidic and Abidal were quality, but i think he's overrating Maggio and Badstuber a bit.

    I really like VQG's front 4 and think the likes of Aguero, Higuain and Ribery running in behind the defence will cause K&K's CB's lots of problems as they aren't exactly the quickest. VQG should get a fair bit of joy there with Fabregas slipping passes through. I also think K&K will get joy from his attackers against VQG's defence. I think Sanchez will cause Enrique alot of problems down VQG's left with his pace and trickery. Joaquin was also a great player, who could go past full backs with skill and also pick out a great cross. He was the king of the nutmeg too, if i'm not mistaken. Hence i don't see the supply to Adriano being a problem either.

    I think Fletcher will find it hard to pick up Silva all match, and he will eventually be free and do some damage with a killer pass or run. I'd say Moutinho v Vidal is a pretty even match up too. Moutinho the better passer but i think Vidal wins it due to his energy/pressing and runs into the box. He will disrupt Moutinho's passing game, and win back posession for K&K. On the other wing, i can see Ribery getting alot of joy on K&K's right due to Maggio's propensity to push high up and join in with the attacks. I don't think Sanchez will help much in tracking back. Ribery is the perfect winger to exploit the space behind due to his pace and direct dribbling. I think this match would be much easier to judge if K&K's attack was better. His attack is strong but doesn't have the x factor feel about it compared to VQG's attack. If Adriano can be kept quiet then i don't think VQG's defence can be got at that much, compared to K&K's defence where i can see VQG finding more ways to score. I feel this is a really tight match and will be decided by the finest of margins, with the winning team only doing so by a goal to nil or something like that.

    It's true that VQG's defence is weaker but i don't think K&K will cause as much problems with his attack to it, and i can see VQG's team eventually getting a goal via a piece of magic or genius.


    VQG for me.
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    I just don't know. The teams match up so closely it's unreal :beard:
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    (Original post by DH1')
    This is a hard match to call.

    I definitely think VQG's defence is his weakest part of his team, and that K&K's defence is superior even if he is slightly overstating how good they all are. Vidic and Abidal were quality, but i think he's overrating Maggio and Badstuber a bit.

    I really like VQG's front 4 and think the likes of Aguero, Higuain and Ribery running in behind the defence will cause K&K's CB's lots of problems as they aren't exactly the quickest. VQG should get a fair bit of joy there with Fabregas slipping passes through. I also think K&K will get joy from his attackers against VQG's defence. I think Sanchez will cause Enrique alot of problems down VQG's left with his pace and trickery. Joaquin was also a great player, who could go past full backs with skill and also pick out a great cross. He was the king of the nutmeg too, if i'm not mistaken. Hence i don't see the supply to Adriano being a problem either.

    I think Fletcher will find it hard to pick up Silva all match, and he will eventually be free and do some damage with a killer pass or run. I'd say Moutinho v Vidal is a pretty even match up too. Moutinho the better passer but i think Vidal wins it due to his energy/pressing and runs into the box. He will disrupt Moutinho's passing game, and win back posession for K&K. On the other wing, i can see Ribery getting alot of joy on K&K's right due to Maggio's propensity to push high up and join in with the attacks. I don't think Sanchez will help much in tracking back. Ribery is the perfect winger to exploit the space behind due to his pace and direct dribbling. I think this match would be much easier to judge if K&K's attack was better. His attack is strong but doesn't have the x factor feel about it compared to VQG's attack. If Adriano can be kept quiet then i don't think VQG's defence can be got at that much, compared to K&K's defence where i can see VQG finding more ways to score. I feel this is a really tight match and will be decided by the finest of margins, with the winning team only doing so by a goal to nil or something like that.

    It's true that VQG's defence is weaker but i don't think K&K will cause as much problems with his attack to it, and i can see VQG's team eventually getting a goal via a piece of magic or genius.


    VQG for me.
    Can't blame a fella for being extremely complimentary about his players. After all, tactics is all about convincing the voters.
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    Just leant towards VQG. Kenan's defence is better, midfields are pretty much identical, and VQG's attack is better...but while Kenan's defence is good I think Maggio is a signficant weakness (defensively) and Ribery will exploit that.
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    K&K has a well rounded team. I actually like his attacking four. Adriano was a great late pick, with a tremendous record for Brazil. Just a point, from our favourite internet information source:

    "From July 11, 2004 through June 25, 2005, Adriano was in peak form, scoring an impressive total of 40 goals in both domestic and international competitions".

    K&K has seriously overestimated his defence though. Obviously Vidic is solid of course. Tactically, the midfield two are to pass out wide whenever they can - I'm not too sure of Silva's role here if the ball is out wide a lot of the time as I think this weakens his play slightly. Fletcher has been told to keep on Silva so I can see Fletcher being pulled about the pitch a lot of the ball is constantly being played out wide. This could actually work in his favour.

    As for VQG, I'm sorry but I really don't like the back five. Begovic is fine but is one of the weakest in the draft. The fullbacks are also better going forward than defensively. I can see K&K having a lot of joy here. I also question Fletcher. Neither him or Moutinho are particularly good holding midfielders, so I can't see the back four having too much protection. This is probably why there's two of them protecting the back for, but still. The attacking front four is very nice, however. I love Aguero. With K&K's two centrebacks, it's pretty important that Aguero can get close to Higuain otherwise it'll be too easy to defend against. The Argentinians will combine well, and Ribery will be a huge threat.

    Very close. I really do like the balance of K&K's team. If Silva can get into the game, he's got a great chance.
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    On the back 4. Enrique's fine defensively - he had about half a poor season in terms of his defensive duties. Before that during his time at Newcastle he was fine. In fact his main criticism last season was in the attacking third. Iraola's a natural full back - he's played in a 4 for the majority of his career. Got moved to a wing back last season and did very well there as well, and his attacking is what'll be key to my team to allow Aguero to link up with Higuain. Agger's a quality defender and has been for a while.

    I don't think I'd mind Silva drifting out wide too much. It'll mean Adriano is isolated down center. Who can then provide support in the middle for Adriano if Silva's drifted out wide? Alexis? Potentially. Joaquin isn't suited for that role at all. Silva's at his most dangerous when he drifts into tiny pockets of space in midfield from outwide. Fletcher can stop that.

    Fletcher's not really a holding midfielder but he's excellent defensively, and he will cover a lot of ground though. He's played in a midfield two for the majority of his career and his best season was in 09/10 when he partnered Paul Scholes in a midfield two. He took over nearly all of the defensive load as Scholes isn't exactly the quickest or most athletic players who can cover a lot of ground. Moutinho's a central midfielder. He's good enough defensively. He showed it in the Euro's when he was partnered in midfield with Meireles and Veloso, with Meireles playing a role closer to Fabregas is in my team.

    I think Moutinho's being a bit underrated here. I think he'd start for every team in the premier league - barring Man City (and that's only because Toure's better when he's not a defensive midfielder). He's a brilliant all round midfielder.
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    This was a really hard one to call, I voted last night not long before the poll closed and i'm still unsure whether I made the right decision. I'm kinda hoping that my vote doesn't make a difference to the result!

    KandK, you're right about how strong you are defensively. You may have oversold them ever so slightly But you are stronger from the keeper up to the two in midfield. You're attack isn't as good as VQG's, but it's not exactly bad.

    VQG, I agree with most of what you've said in your "Key points"

    I could hardly separate the two teams. I'll be interested to see the results.
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    (Original post by Cll_ws)
    This was a really hard one to call, I voted last night not long before the poll closed and i'm still unsure whether I made the right decision. I'm kinda hoping that my vote doesn't make a difference to the result!

    KandK, you're right about how strong you are defensively. You may have oversold them ever so slightly But you are stronger from the keeper up to the two in midfield. You're attack isn't as good as VQG's, but it's not exactly bad.

    VQG, I agree with most of what you've said in your "Key points"

    I could hardly separate the two teams. I'll be interested to see the results.
    Are you not going to say who you voted for then?
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    (Original post by Kenan and Kel)
    Are you not going to say who you voted for then?
    You'll see when the results are revealed
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    (Original post by Cll_ws)
    You'll see when the results are revealed
    How do you see who's voted for who when it's revealed? All I usually see is the numbers.
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    (Original post by Kenan and Kel)
    How do you see who's voted for who when it's revealed? All I usually see is the numbers.
    You should be able to click on the numbers. It'll list who's voted for each option.
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    (Original post by Cll_ws)
    You should be able to click on the numbers. It'll list who's voted for each option.
    :banghead:

    Time to visit all my previous draft matches, and send out some horrible PMs.
 
 
 
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