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    As much as I hate to admit it the liberal-left have a point when they say 'taxation isn't theft'.

    Is it fair to say that taxation is dysfunctional instead though?

    To use a straightforward example - imagine if a private pizza delivery company adopted the statist fund raising model. They delivered pizza to everyone in the community (whether they wanted pizza or not) and then charged an arbitrary, non-negotiable sum depending on individual circumstances of the recipients.

    Is this theft?

    Possibly. But it's most definitely coercive and probably inefficient because scarce resources aren't being allocated sensibly.


    Discuss.
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    So in this world I get subsidised pizza? Who do I vote for to have that happen? Seems like a green party idea.

    (Original post by chefdave)
    As much as I hate to admit it the liberal-left have a point when they say 'taxation isn't theft'.

    Is it fair to say that taxation is dysfunctional instead though?

    To use a straightforward example - imagine if a private pizza delivery company adopted the statist fund raising model. They delivered pizza to everyone in the community (whether they wanted pizza or not) and then charged an arbitrary, non-negotiable sum depending on individual circumstances of the recipients.

    Is this theft?

    Possibly. But it's most definitely coercive and probably inefficient because scarce resources aren't being allocated sensibly.


    Discuss.
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    Mmm pizza.
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    So in this world I get subsidised pizza? Who do I vote for to have that happen? Seems like a green party idea.
    The pizza isn't really important I just used it as an example to highlight the mechanics of taxation. I think you know this anyway?
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    (Original post by james1211)
    Mmm pizza.
    It tastes all the better when somebody else has slaved away in a pizzeria all making it. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    The pizza isn't really important I just used it as an example to highlight the mechanics of taxation. I think you know this anyway?
    So you're saying the pizza is a lie...?
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    So you're saying the pizza is a lie...?
    Ok, imagine if the state used it's muscle to give a pizza company a licence to operate in the way I've described.

    Would this be acceptable to you?

    If not, can you understand why libertarians get so worked up about the issue of tax?
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    As much as I hate to admit it the liberal-left have a point when they say 'taxation isn't theft'.

    Is it fair to say that taxation is dysfunctional instead though?

    To use a straightforward example - imagine if a private pizza delivery company adopted the statist fund raising model. They delivered pizza to everyone in the community (whether they wanted pizza or not) and then charged an arbitrary, non-negotiable sum depending on individual circumstances of the recipients.

    Is this theft?

    Possibly. But it's most definitely coercive and probably inefficient because scarce resources aren't being allocated sensibly.


    Discuss.
    lol, i just quoted you in another thread along these lines...

    So you disagree with tax completely?

    How do you propose we fund policing? If someone robs you, do you go to the police station and set a bounty, that might work kind of. But how are you going to pay for other kinds of policing, like patrols or customs or anti-terrorism blablabla that doesn't directly supply a product/service to a single person?

    How would you fund an army? It would have to be voluntarily funded or something.

    Roads? Pay-per-mile driven to private companies, I suppose you could buy a 'road pass' to go on some companies roads etc (like buying a train ticket) but it would be massively complicated and implementing it would probably cost more than everyone sharing the cost by say, a tax.

    Some things, like pizzas (or railways have been, kind of) or roads like above can be removed from the state system but others doing so would be very difficult.

    That's why every government in history has either a tax or owns a lot of oil fields.



    What you want is to reduce tax and have a very small government that deals with just the absolute essentials - but surely you can't argue tax shouldn't exist because you are always going to need some of it.
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    (Original post by Hanvyj)
    lol, i just quoted you in another thread along these lines...

    So you disagree with tax completely?

    How do you propose we fund policing? If someone robs you, do you go to the police station and set a bounty, that might work kind of. But how are you going to pay for other kinds of policing, like patrols or customs or anti-terrorism blablabla that doesn't directly supply a product/service to a single person?

    How would you fund an army? It would have to be voluntarily funded or something.

    Roads? Pay-per-mile driven to private companies, I suppose you could buy a 'road pass' to go on some companies roads etc (like buying a train ticket) but it would be massively complicated and implementing it would probably cost more than everyone sharing the cost by say, a tax.

    Some things, like pizzas (or railways have been, kind of) or roads like above can be removed from the state system but others doing so would be very difficult.

    That's why every government in history has either a tax or owns a lot of oil fields.



    What you want is to reduce tax and have a very small government that deals with just the absolute essentials - but surely you can't argue tax shouldn't exist because you are always going to need some of it.
    I think it's important to recognise that the state adds value by providing communal services such as policing etc, so the logical implication is that it deserves some form of payment (tax, if you will) in return. It's just that I disagree with the current model because it's very messy and complicated. If there were an easier way to put a value on the communal services we all receive we'd be in a position assess our individual tax bills accordingly and the coercive element that I object wouldn't be as prominent. Does that make sense?
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    Yes there should be tax, but I agree the current system is highly inefficient. The Government could have more money to spend if they weren't wasting so much on inefficiency.
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    To me, saying that taxation is stealing someone's money is a bit like saying that beheading is stealing someone's head; true, but that's not why it's done. The main reason the government taxes people isn't because they want the money (that's a secondary reason), but because control over the money supply gives them control over economy and society.
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    To me, saying that taxation is stealing someone's money is a bit like saying that beheading is stealing someone's head; true, but that's not why it's done. The main reason the government taxes people isn't because they want the money (that's a secondary reason), but because control over the money supply gives them control over economy and society.
    Taxation is used as a covert method to transfer wealth away from the poor and into the pockets of the rich. The state spends the money it collects in communal services that supposedly benefit us all, however an elite group of home/land owners benefit twice over because schools, hospitals, rail networks and policing etc all add to the value of their housing/land. They can then pass this cost on to tenants or future buyers.

    In a nutshell this is how the economy functions and the sooner the left get to grips with this illicit transfer the of wealth the quicker we can resolve it properly.

    Stop the cheating, share the rents!
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Ok, imagine if the state used it's muscle to give a pizza company a licence to operate in the way I've described.

    Would this be acceptable to you?

    If not, can you understand why libertarians get so worked up about the issue of tax?
    How many toppings do we get? Can we choose our own? We talking thin crust or deep pan? Come on this is important.
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    The services the government are providing aren't something as frivolous as pizza. They are necessities such as waste removal, education and health. The only way taxation is dysfunctional is that the government get our money regardless of whether or not they provide a good service.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    How many toppings do we get? Can we choose our own? We talking thin crust or deep pan? Come on this is important.
    Haha, you get what you're given. That's what happens in a monopoly.
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    (Original post by Swanbow)
    The services the government are providing aren't something as frivolous as pizza. They are necessities such as waste removal, education and health. The only way taxation is dysfunctional is that the government get our money regardless of whether or not they provide a good service.
    If the model is bad the model is bad, it matters not whether the service is pizza delivery or secondary school education.
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    Taxation helps funding of public goods that individuals have no incentive to pay for the provision of said goods, without taxation what will happen to all these goods? there are also effects on aggregate demand/supply to consider but what would I know as an OCR AS level economics student
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Haha, you get what you're given. That's what happens in a monopoly.
    Well as long as there's no anchovies or pineapple involved I think you've got yourself a pretty solid idea. Excess pizza could be collected at the end of every week and recycled into fertiliser or used as a source of renewable energy.
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    (Original post by Robbie242)
    Taxation helps funding of public goods that individuals have no incentive to pay for the provision of said goods, without taxation what will happen to all these goods? there are also effects on aggregate demand/supply to consider but what would I know as an OCR AS level economics student
    As an economics student you're probably aware that taxation has a detrimental impact on the private sector supply curve (it shifts it to the left) so these public goods entail additional costs that must be accounted for in our models. This burden is the reason why I favour a low tax economy. Public goods are valuable yes and they probably wouldn't be provided if we left things entirely to the market, but their associated benefits need to carefully balanced against dead-weight cost the economy suffers to pay for them. A lot of idealists only want to talk about 'R NHS' or the 'poor&vulnerable' while conveniently ignoring the bigger picture.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Well as long as there's no anchovies or pineapple involved I think you've got yourself a pretty solid idea. Excess pizza could be collected at the end of every week and recycled into fertiliser or used as a source of renewable energy.
    You don't like anchovies Mr Haddock?

    That is a surprise!
 
 
 
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